Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Tortanick, Apr 2, 2007.
sanctify is not emant to stop hell spread its meant to get it out of newly conqured lands quickly
Here is some detail on the subject.
Hell doesn't spread in good lands anymore? What's the point in having it then, it doesn't supply any major bonuses, just detriments =/
it's a serious issue atm IMO. Increasing the armageddon counter doesn't really help evil in any meaningful way. All it results in is you losing all your food resources and forests, getting swamped by barbs, and all the good civs dogpiling you.
I definitely think it should be able to spread in the good lands.
Personally I'd like a totally different method of spreading hell, one where players can directly encorage or fight the spread of hell rather than indirectly fighting it through the Armageddon counter.
I'd always envisioned it as having certain things encouraging the spread of hell, veil worshipping cities and specially built terrain improvement (lets call it obsidian towers)
And on the opposing side you would have order worship and silver towers.
At first defending you're lands from the spread of hell would be easy, build silver towers or encourage the spread of order, but as the Armageddon counter rises it becomes harder and harder until with a high Armageddon counter you cannot stop its spread without destroying whatever is spreading hell into you're lands.
I'd like it to vanish after destroying Hyborem - but it is always growing, even, where I've sanctified already (I'm Evil) - also I'd like to have it only in VEIL territory, so changeing religion would help - furthermore it should give very good boni to Evil Veil players.
just using twenty adepts to fight it like pollution spoils the rhythm of the game [for me].
btw: Ashen veil on a standard pangaea map is a bit owerpowered, isn't it? so you could say "ok, if using ashen veil you have to handle hell" - great but then I want to have the ability to change to fellowships to fight it.
the twenty-adept-sanctify method isn't fun.
what about water terrains?... i noticed that nothing ever happens to the coasts as the evil takes over the world. I vaguely remember in vanilla civ (could have been other game i havent played vanilla since last summer) the coastal tiles became polluted and black as portcities become more populous and industrial. How about the coastal tiles becoming more suitable for the hellish and undead as they populate the world too?
Hell terrain does vanish when the Infernals are vanquished. I personally don't think it should. It i fine for it to stop expanding, but there is no reason to think that the broken lands could heal themselves that quickly.
Hell does spread in water, and it destroys the improvements there (fishing and whaling boats), however there is no separate Hell terrain for coasts of ocean, so you cannot know where it has spread. I think that a hell version of water terrains is currently on the wishlist.
Hellishness does spread along the seafloor, though there is currently no change in the sea to reflect this. Eventually it does show up on the far coast and start wreaking havoc.
I'm torn on the issue of hell-terrain impacting the lands of good-aligned civs. Perhaps it should have some sort of modified culture battle with them, so that young settlements/cities on the edges of empire would be more imperiled but have a better chance to withstand it than neutral, evil, or AV ones.
I defeated Hyborem, but hell terrain still exists and continues to grow. Now the only spot I'm aware of is a patch of neutral land surrounded on one side by Basium, and the other by another good civ, but I can still see the volcanoes. Just haven't bothered to send my sanctifying liches over there to take care of it, they are too busy vitalizing as the counter hit 40 and desert all over the place in my once great civ...
Oh and the loss of farms, I had a vampire in every city so they had a feast until the cities were small enough to sustain themselves again Lots of leveling that turn!
Now they are growing back pretty quickly as I rebuild all my farms/pastures/etc.
I am in agreement that right now Evil civs don't seem to benefit from Hell terrain as much as they should. I wonder if its just the lack of resources available in Hell terrain that makes it that way? Looking at the raw stats, Broken Lands have the same base resources and improvement bonuses that grasslands do, and Fields of Perdition the same as plains(according to wiki data anyway).
Anyway, I am in conflict about Hell spreading to good lands too, but I like the idea of it working differently depending on cultural decay. Perhaps it should spread to Good lands if thier cultural percentage on that tile is less than..? 75%, 50%? It would make sense if the Good civ doesn't have full influence on that area, evil could spread in it.. but how high/low should that influence be?
It may or it may not. If, for example, any Hell lands are taken over by someone with The Ashen Veil as their state religion, Hell will continue without a care. On the other hand, if any Hell lands are taken over by a Good player, those plots will last 8 turns or less as Hell.
Detail is in the page linked by my post above.
Interesting, I love Sheut Stone. Particularly if you're Infernal, Hell gives direct combat bonuses for many of your units via Demon. The main disadvantages I've encountered are Burning Sands - Spring no longer works on them (Unless you sanctify them first), so they will never improve, and Burnt Forests (They don't re-grow even with a sub -Hell terrain Hell Count).
But in any case, I agree. At least any one with The Ashen Veil should find Hell terrain to be at least a mild bonus overall, on average. Personally, I'd change Hell to be more food-poor than the base terrain, and increase production or commerce (or give more completely alternative bonuses, like Sheut Stone) to compensate.
yeah that's a good idea, so cultural influence evil/good would make a difference regarding the spread.
but after all I'd like to have hell vanish when the hyborem are vanquished (english language is so funny ) - maybe it's like that now, I've played patch a when it was still spreading after defeating the hyborem? have to test it under patch d.
maybe it *should* still spread after hyborem have vanquished, but then i'd like to have the ability to build an improvement e.g. "life tower" which can be used to stop it spreading around 9 tiles or a city building which makes it stop like around the cultural border of it's city. Using adepts is a bit tedious..
but then if there were more resources it would be nice to hope for hell.
after all what's the idea behind hell? should it be like it is, to reduce the strength of the evil players especially because the Ashen Veil is very strong thanks to it's advance bonus? Maybe it's just not the idea behind hell to sanctify it at all, unless by good borderlines...? but if that's the case, there should be something for the neutral non-ashen-veil civ's to be safe of it (but not a hoard of adepts..).
Hyborems death doesn't effect the spread of Hell directly. Its all based on the AC counter. Hyborems death does lower the AC counter so you would see Hell retreat if killing him gets the AC counter low enough, but thats not a direct effect of his death.
thanks for explaining! now it makes sense to me.
I wish the hell terrain can transform the sea into blood or black waters
Me too, unfortunatly i cant find a way to have 2 different river graphics. I would LOVE to switch hell rivers to blood red or lava streams. But until I do that I cant change ocean colors (because blue rivers flowing into red water looks to goofy).
It seems like the bonus that the AV unique tech gives to serpent pillars could be spread to some other Hell features. Maybe burnt forests could get their hammer back, some resources could be more profittable, etc.
Maybe it would be better for the water to just be dark and putrid. Some sort of visible cue would be nice, even if it's not extreme.
I think that the hellish seas should be a big bonus for OO players. There is no reason to have it be made of blood (although bloody rivers would be cool). Some Civilopedia entries already mention an ocean in hell.
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