What if combat wasn't RNG dependent?

There is a difference between "better strategist" and "person who displayed better strategy this game". You don't need any random factors at all for a player who is weaker on average to win some games.

I want the person who plays the best in a given game to win it, all other things being equal (obviously in things like FFA this would get a bit more convoluted).

But I also question the need for RNG driven combat, as well as what it brings to the game over deterministic combat. It seems an odd choice in a game that is so largely deterministic to throw in a random factor that, for all intents and purposes, gets largely negated in scope by deterministic ones after the early game. Why have the random factor at all then?

I see it is all about balance than ;) I agree - in the game terms , Civ is just a game and there is no point to throw in reality issues but even in game - a better guy can have a bad day once in a while (RL random hehe :D - For example: Like one of the corporals of Napoleon forgot to bring a map to a battlefiled and France lost hehe) I would like to see it implemented (No RNG) for a test run but still I think that rigged-combat games are a lot less interesting than random ones and I guess yeah some people would like that and some dont ;)
 
While slightly off topic:
Land should be balanced, unless you're deliberatelycreating scenariosotherwise. Or put another way, we should have at least ONE map that will generate different, but balanced start positions. We have none. That way if someone WANTS a balanced script, they can get it. Or heck, why not? If the algorithm is too terrible/hard to create, make a few maps into scenarios and balance the scenarios/randomize who starts where (since all the starts would be balanced). I forget whether scenarios can do this or not though.
We had none until very recently :)
Sevenspirits recently released a mapscript called Torusland, which aims at balanced but none mirrored maps. Each player will start roughly equidistant, with (I think) 2 decent foods, a river and approximately the same number of forests.
Its very balanced: http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=6074
 
While slightly off topic:

We had none until very recently :)
Sevenspirits recently released a mapscript called Torusland, which aims at balanced but none mirrored maps. Each player will start roughly equidistant, with (I think) 2 decent foods, a river and approximately the same number of forests.
Its very balanced: http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=6074

Downloaded it. I'll see how it works soon enough!

a better guy can have a bad day once in a while (RL random hehe - For example: Like one of the corporals of Napoleon forgot to bring a map to a battlefiled and France lost hehe)

This doesn't sound very random to me at all. It sounds like someone screwed up. RNG in civ IV is to model possibilities for things like this, but the important question is what doing so adds to the game as well as what it takes away. We know neither as we don't have a sound frame of reference, and I'm not sure the mod is in a state that it could provide one.
 
This is what RNG in combat is to me :

images


this is what Non-RNG in combat is to me :

1649704-261434-vektor-illustration-af-maalet-med-pile-paa-en-skydeskive.jpg


(and I didnt even use Chess ;))
 
Yes, it all comes down to what you want from the game.

TheMeInTeam articulates the one side of the argument quite well. He makes good points and I would agree with him on most of those points if that was what I was looking for in the game. Alas I do not. I prefer that it reflects real conflict where the best side doesn't always win. But that doesn't mean that I can't respect his opinion. I'll admit I'm biased from all the games I grew up with which a majority of those had random elements in the combat aspect. Even he admits that the best player will do better most of the time.

And Qgqqqqq, that sounds quite interesting and I'll sure I'll give it a try for our weekly MP games to see if it helps a bit. I don't want the starts to be exactly the same, just a bit less lopsided. It's been awhile since I put in a new map script so I hope there's reminder instructions. ;)
 
I prefer that it reflects real conflict where the best side doesn't always win.

Complete agreement. Here's a quote from me from another thread that sums up why no RNG wouldn't work:
I think the issue is that then there's no way to "catch up". In the game we have now, spammed Longbows+Cats can hold off Riflemen and Infantry so your civ can survive and you have some potential to catch up... if it was predetermined you should just ragequit as soon as the first AI has Macemen.
 
TheMeInTeam articulates the one side of the argument quite well. He makes good points and I would agree with him on most of those points if that was what I was looking for in the game. Alas I do not. I prefer that it reflects real conflict where the best side doesn't always win.

Again, this is a false assumption. The best side at a given time always wins. The real question is an evaluation of what makes them "best". Outcomes differ from expected because we as human beings couldn't forsee every single factor in that battle going into it (nor could we, since we don't know exactly what the enemy will choose to do). None of this is *random*, however...and never has a fight in history had a giant human looking down at the soldiers as ants and controlling their collective movement choices on the macro scale, even if its deliberate suicide.

Besides, many here are missing another important consideration: deterministic combat can model exactly what Rah is saying about a "weaker" side winning. Considering all the modifiers, collateral, and promotions in this game you can easily have the outcome of a fight between two stacks be *completely* different based on where it happens and how it is executed. Is that not a conflict where "the best side doesn't always win", based on incomplete information of what constitutes "best"?

I think most people are thinking PURELY in the context of the current AI...guaranteeing you'll win with deterministic combat is otherwise a bit...arrogant :lol:.

Complete agreement. Here's a quote from me from another thread that sums up why no RNG wouldn't work:

If you're going to quote something, quote something accurate. What makes you think spammed longbows + cats can't win in deterministic combat? The entire paragraph makes no sense. You'd have similar expected average losses clearing out the rifles under either model, but much less variance with deterministic combat. That doesn't make it more likely for you to catch up...nor does it make it less.

It seems to me more like you're arguing in favor of randomizing tile yields and tech costs (THAT would let you catch up faster at random) than you are against deterministic combat, even if that isn't your intention :lol:. The argument you put forth just doesn't make sense as one going against a deterministic model.
 
Some of my most satisfying wins have been the result of taking wild gambles in combat. Like when you're invaded by a vastly superior army, or an AI is running away, or on the brink of a culture victory (because you forgot to check the victory condition screen:nono:), and you have to attack NOW with the best force you can slap together, sometimes leaving cities undefended for a turn or two. Yeah, a you lose a lot and then the game is over, but when you win, it's worth the pain of all those 99% battles you've lost.

I think a measure of uncertainty makes the game more fun. Go has more strategic depth than just about any game in existence, but its deterministic nature makes it lack the excitement of risk taking. If you want a deep game with no randomness, go is what you are looking for.

Me personally, I play with huts and events because I play for fun, instead of trying to prove my skill in single player mode to a bunch of strangers on an internet forum. If I want to be competitive I play multiplayer with some friends. Yeah, I can win on deity, I'm not a total scrub; I'm not the best either and that's fine with me. I usually play lower, sometimes as low as prince when I'm experimenting with new strategies or am just looking for a quick casual game. I play with "play now" settings as random leaders on fractal maps because that's what I enjoy.

I like the possibility of a bad start, or rolling Charlemagne as your leader, or having another civ run away early because they popped three techs from huts, or whatever. I like it when the challenge comes in an unpredictable way rather than overcoming the same old AI cheating by repeatedly exploiting the same AI faults on a map where everyone starts on the same continent with the max number of hand-picked opponents while playing the Incas and abusing slavery and microing every citizen and hammer of overflow every turn just so I can crap out a high score. I think of combat randomness as another element of unpredictable challenge, which I think makes the game more fun.

There are plenty of examples in history where a hopelessly outmatched force has prevailed due to extraordinary bravery or pure luck. It's more realistic, in addition to providing what I consider more entertaining gameplay. Yesterday I lost a combat 5 modern armor to a wounded infantry in the field at 99% odds. I think of it as an exceptionally brave unit that managed to slap sticky bombs on the treads of my tanks and throw a few hand grenades right down the barrels of their cannons. I like the fact that combat creates emotional spikes when extraordinarily unlikely outcomes occur. I think combat is more fun when the outcome is in doubt until it's over. Even though I've seen the combat animations a billion times, I leave them on for the suspense. Perhaps it's just a difference of opinion, but I think randomness in combat is great.
 
Because a full strength Rifle would always beat a full strength Longbow.

Why are you attacking a full strength rifle with a longbow?
And looking at it hammerwise - shouldn't a full strength 110 hammer unit beat a full strength 50 hammer unit?
/not getting involved
 
Some of my most satisfying wins have been the result of taking wild gambles in combat. Like when you're invaded by a vastly superior army, or an AI is running away, or on the brink of a culture victory (because you forgot to check the victory condition screen), and you have to attack NOW with the best force you can slap together, sometimes leaving cities undefended for a turn or two.

Now, what's the difference between RNG and deterministic combat in this scenario?

I think a measure of uncertainty makes the game more fun. Go has more strategic depth than just about any game in existence, but its deterministic nature makes it lack the excitement of risk taking. If you want a deep game with no randomness, go is what you are looking for.

I don't understand the repeated and asinine assertion that deterministic combat carries no risk in civ. Why you are operating on the apparent assumption that your opposition consists of only complete and utter idiots? Just because combat is deterministic doesn't mean battles, wars, or games are deterministic.

I don't know how go works and thus can't comment on the relevance of the analogy.

Me personally, I play with huts and events because I play for fun, instead of trying to prove my skill in single player mode to a bunch of strangers on an internet forum. If I want to be competitive I play multiplayer with some friends. Yeah, I can win on deity, I'm not a total scrub; I'm not the best either and that's fine with me. I usually play lower, sometimes as low as prince when I'm experimenting with new strategies or am just looking for a quick casual game. I play with "play now" settings as random leaders on fractal maps because that's what I enjoy.

Not relevant to the discussion.

I like the possibility of a bad start, or rolling Charlemagne as your leader, or having another civ run away early because they popped three techs from huts, or whatever. I like it when the challenge comes in an unpredictable way rather than overcoming the same old AI cheating by repeatedly exploiting the same AI faults on a map where everyone starts on the same continent with the max number of hand-picked opponents while playing the Incas and abusing slavery and microing every citizen and hammer of overflow every turn just so I can crap out a high score. I think of combat randomness as another element of unpredictable challenge, which I think makes the game more fun.

So you can have your mod with random tile yields and tech costs too. Make it all random, it's more fun then if you follow that logic. And maybe that really would be more enjoyable to you, being completely unable to plan for anything in the micro sense whatsoever.

However, I point out your comments about AI faults as false. That is precisely what people do right now, so attaching it to deterministic combat only is a wrong way to make the comparison, since it exists regardless of method. The same is true for the other random factors, but the AI in particular is not something that belongs in this thread, aside from how you'd adjust it to handle a different combat model. The AI is a player in the game, it is not part of the game's rules.

There are plenty of examples in history where a hopelessly outmatched force has prevailed due to extraordinary bravery or pure luck

Where was the pure luck? People keep asserting that "unexpected enemy decision" = luck, and it's ludicrous. The closest thing to "random" history has seen is major weather events before techonology to track them existed. Strictly speaking, however, even that wasn't actually random.

You're going to have to do better. I've already pointed out the asinine nature of the "it's more realistic" argument, not to mention how that argument attacks nearly the entirety of civ IV which IS deterministic with things that absolutely ARE NOT in reality. Saying the same thing again without addressing my points cheapens your position, it doesn't strengthen it.

I think of it as an exceptionally brave unit that managed to slap sticky bombs on the treads of my tanks and throw a few hand grenades right down the barrels of their cannons.

In other words, in your head you make up a scenario with deterministic factors (ambush, incompetent tank crews, superhuman skill in throwing grenades) and then use that to explain an RNG outcome. The odd thing here is that you're purporting such fantasy is more realistic.

Because a full strength Rifle would always beat a full strength Longbow.

You can't drive on the street because cars run out of fuel.

Try again.

And looking at it hammerwise - shouldn't a full strength 110 hammer unit beat a full strength 50 hammer unit?

Not only that, but multiple longbows would kill the rifle guaranteed. The :hammers: trade only favors the rifle on average if it doesn't get swarmed and killed...note that the base game is designed this way, likely on purpose.

Further making his argument ludicrous is that in large stack combats, the standard deviation of :hammers: lost becomes such a small proportion of the total :hammers: involved that the fact that it ISN'T deterministic at that point is irrelevant to the outcome.

It is a functionally deterministic situation; you could play the game 1000's and 1000's of times and 15 longbows still wouldn't beat 20 rifles in any of them...MAYBE in 1. However, you could also play the game 1000's and 1000's of times, and 100 longbows would win that fight virtually every time (making these #'s up, although this is especially true with siege because collateral damage is guaranteed damage).

But herp derp RNG is necessary in this situation! Deterministic combat would TOTALLY change the strategy and winner of this battle! One TOTALLY wouldn't use collateral initiative + stack wipe the same way regardless!

Or not. Deterministic outcomes would barely matter outside the early game, because civ IV nukes and collateral damage + small % total :hammers: in the mid-late game of any one or even 5 losses see to it that luck is largely non-factor after that.
 
Because a full strength Rifle would always beat a full strength Longbow.
Yes, but you mentioned "longbows + cats". Deterministic combat still allows weakening the Rifles with Cats and then mopping up with Bows (keep in mind, that deterministic combat =/= the winner receiving no damage).
 
The winner actually takes quite a bit of damage unless you alter the mod otherwise right now. Some of the discussion before the wheels fell of this about a year ago was on how much expected damage/power ratio should happen for balance reasons.

The reason is that if you make expected damage too high, incentive to spam mindlessly beats out teching (unless you adjust unit costs too). If you make it too low, outdated troops are worthless. That is one reason people suggested doing something that mimics the current "average expected damage" based on the RNG model currently used; it's a baseline around which units are balanced in the game right now. I think that such shouldn't be held sacred (Civ was not fundamentally created for balance in the first place, which is why we have civ tiers and elephants), but it is an interesting frame of reference.
 
Now, what's the difference between RNG and deterministic combat in this scenario?

With RNG, I have a chance of winning on a longshot, even if I am in a poor position due to my own mistakes. If combat is purely deterministic, I can mathematically calculate whether or not I will be able to stop my opponent, and if I can't, I just admit defeat and start a new game, losing the fun of the gamble. Either success is certain, or impossible. No grey area. That's the difference. Which you prefer is a matter of taste.

I don't understand the repeated and asinine assertion that deterministic combat carries no risk in civ. Why you are operating on the apparent assumption that your opposition consists of only complete and utter idiots? Just because combat is deterministic doesn't mean battles, wars, or games are deterministic.

It's essentially a fixed exchange in which the outcome is known, like taking an opponent's rook with your knight, knowing that you will lose your knight on the next turn. It's more a matter of relative valuation of resources, in this case units, than risk management. Tradeoffs of value vs. preparing for the unknown, and possibly getting screwed anyway, or getting away with one when you really shouldn't have. You exchange some of your units health for the destruction of another unit. The result is mathematically predetermined. It's a choice of whether you feel it is worth is to exchange some of your unit's hp for the removal of an opponent's unit. Perhaps the fact that your injured unit could be destroyed in an counterattack could be construed as risk, but that is really a known tradeoff, or a result of under-preparation. Or, if your opponent doesn't exploit the opportunity, that could be considered luck. I never said it makes the game as a whole deterministic. It's just different, and a matter of taste. I like to gamble. I love playing cards because I can overbet, get called by an opponent with a superior hand, and win anyway by luck of the draw. I like that kind of rush. Remove that element of uncertainty on a turn by turn basis and it becomes less like poker and more like chess. I like the emotional wildness of poker. Chess is a fine game that consistently rewards skill, but it doesn't have the drama of poker.

I don't know how go works and thus can't comment on the relevance of the analogy.

Go is another fine game in which no two matches are the same, but there are no random events. From what I can gather from your preferences in games you would enjoy it. Check it out some time.

Not relevant to the discussion.

I was just providing some context for the type of player I am so you would have an idea where I'm coming from.

So you can have your mod with random tile yields and tech costs too. Make it all random, it's more fun then if you follow that logic. And maybe that really would be more enjoyable to you, being completely unable to plan for anything in the micro sense whatsoever.

I never said that EVERYTHING should be random, much like you don't assert that EVERYTHING should be deterministic. I'm sure you don't play the same exact map with the same start point and opponents every game. You are extrapolating my points to an illogical extent. The balance of chance vs. predetermination is a matter of taste. I simply meant to say that the random elements that are at play in Civ 4 offer what is for me a more enjoyable experience. Your taste may be different.

However, I point out your comments about AI faults as false. That is precisely what people do right now, so attaching it to deterministic combat only is a wrong way to make the comparison, since it exists regardless of method. The same is true for the other random factors, but the AI in particular is not something that belongs in this thread, aside from how you'd adjust it to handle a different combat model. The AI is a player in the game, it is not part of the game's rules.

The bit about the AI was intended to provide more context about my preferences in gameplay. The same problem of exploiting consistent faults does occur when playing deterministic games like chess or go against an AI though, with the exception of extraordinarily sophisticated AI like Deep Blue. But I don't have a multibillion dollar supercomputer to play Civ with me, so I'm stuck with what the modding community has been able to provide me.

Where was the pure luck? People keep asserting that "unexpected enemy decision" = luck, and it's ludicrous. The closest thing to "random" history has seen is major weather events before techonology to track them existed. Strictly speaking, however, even that wasn't actually random.

Things like weather, poorly timed equipment malfunctions and unsolicited opportunistic 3rd party interventions constitute chance rather than strategy/tactics in my opinion. Perhaps "pure luck" wasn't the correct phrasing. In theory these events are deterministic, but to simulate such things accurately would require an absurd mountain of code. I'll settle for calling them extraordinary events outside the control of the commander/army, which can be roughly simulated by RNG. You do know that the RNG in your computer is actually deterministic, it's derived from a seed number that is generated based on the internal clock, so Civ 4 actually does have deterministic combat if you want to get that nitpicky.

You're going to have to do better. I've already pointed out the idiocy of the "it's more realistic" argument, not to mention how that argument attacks nearly the entirety of civ IV which IS deterministic with things that absolutely ARE NOT in reality. Saying the same thing again without addressing my points cheapens your position, it doesn't strengthen it.

It's more realistic in the sense that the outcome isn't known ahead of time, but the realism isn't terribly important to me, that point was just kind of thrown in there, I'll admit.

In other words, in your head you make up a scenario with deterministic factors (ambush, incompetent tank crews, superhuman skill in throwing grenades) and then use that to explain an RNG outcome. The odd thing here is that you're purporting such fantasy is more realistic.

I make up a scenario in my head so that I don't get as pissed when I lose high probability battles, kind of to say "meh, that sucks, but theoretically there's a way such a thing could happen." I know damn well that it's RNG that killed my unit. As opposed to raging about it, I make up some BS to rationalize it. You make threads on the internet about removing the combat RNG. Nothing wrong with that, interesting conversation actually, I just have a different position. Like I said, actual realism isn't so important to me. However, anomalous outcomes can and do happen in war. Simulating all of the psychological elements that affect combat is a computational task that is currently beyond us, so for a game I'll settle for the roll of a dice.
 
With RNG, I have a chance of winning on a longshot, even if I am in a poor position due to my own mistakes. If combat is purely deterministic, I can mathematically calculate whether or not I will be able to stop my opponent, and if I can't, I just admit defeat and start a new game, losing the fun of the gamble.

Oh sure. You claim you can "mathematically calculate" exactly how many troops the opponent will have when arrive, as well as how many and exactly what they are, all ahead of time, and then realize you've lost to the point where it isn't worth trying?

Or are you instead going to complain about knowing the attack will fail the turn you're attacking, but only if you do calculations instead of just fighting and seeing? Which angle are you going with this sillyness? Is there a 3rd one that makes sense that I'm missing? Most players can't see into the fog and know exactly what their opponent will do in terms of production, tech choices, and movement/positioning at all times.

I'm pretty sure I'm proposing deterministic combat, not omniscience. Stop arguing against omniscience when trying to argue against DC.

It's essentially a fixed exchange in which the outcome is known

Instantly wrong, unless your strategy is limited to a single turn. The outcome of a given battle can be known, but the exchange is anything but fixed right up until the fight occurs, and there's absolutely no way to know what your opponent will do.

It's more a matter of relative valuation of resources, in this case units, than risk management.

Oh, you mean like the rest of the core gameplay of civ IV in general?

You keep saying "no risk no risk no risk no risk no risk no risk no risk no risk no risk no risk". It's getting old. Your opponents actions are not known, and victory isn't guaranteed. I don't know what hocked up definition of risk you're trying to use, but it isn't an accurate one.

ou exchange some of your units health for the destruction of another unit. The result is mathematically predetermined. It's a choice of whether you feel it is worth is to exchange some of your unit's hp for the removal of an opponent's unit. Perhaps the fact that your injured unit could be destroyed in an counterattack could be construed as risk, but that is really a known tradeoff, or a result of under-preparation.

Okay. I get it now. You're insisting there is no risk based solely on the possible actions for you and you alone on a single turn. You are extrapolating "no risk on me attacking this unit this turn" as = no risk. That is fundamentally flawed, and seriously so.

There are LOTS of risks to investing in an army, declaring war, moving into enemy territory, or engaging the enemy and taking a lot of damage without complete knowledge of everything about your opponent and what choices he will make. You could discover you can't actually kill him after building the units; that's loss even if you don't attack. You could discover he was hiding fast moving units in the fog and get stack wiped. You might be counter attacked, production-spammed, or simply fail to capture enough cities fast enough to be able to react to something else across teh world. All of these are risks, and yet you have repeatedly asserted they don't exist because you know that pike will kill a knight. It's absurd.

I never said that EVERYTHING should be random, much like you don't assert that EVERYTHING should be deterministic.

Indeed. The question is where is rational to draw the line. There is no fundamental reason that combat needs to be RNG while tech rate is deterministic; that's just what the designers chose. You could achieve similar results (and indeed, similar instances of lower-probability winners) by flipping which is random.

My point is that RNG combat sticks out like a sore thumb precisely because aside from spawn balance (and apparently work has indeed been done to attain spawn balance) it is the only non-player mechanic involving RNG that can't be disabled, and that there is no reason it is necessarily required or even necessarily preferable.

poorly timed equipment malfunctions and unsolicited opportunistic 3rd party interventions constitute chance rather than strategy/tactics in my opinion.

Opinions sometimes can't be wrong, but in this case you definitely are. Equipment doesn't just "malfunction", it malfunctions for a reason. 3rd parties intervene for a reason.

The weather is an interesting case. It is deterministic in the sense that everything weather-related operates based on a cause (most of which are now known), but modeling it to the extent that it is predictable is very difficult. That's why I mentioned it was the "closest" thing to being random that has decided any known war ever.

In theory these events are deterministic, but to simulate such things accurately would require an absurd mountain of code. I'll settle for calling them extraordinary events outside the control of the commander/army, which can be roughly simulated by RNG

The reason these things are impractical to code is the scale of the game of civilization IV itself. It isn't modeling people's lives, seasons, tactical combat, or someone carving out a wheel. We surely aren't playing a harvest moon minigame every turn to get tile yields, or a minecraft minigame. Civ IV was put on a long historic scale. Everything else from mining to farming to irrigating canals (huge project management there) to building world wonders and complex infrastructe to hiring people to discover technology is all done in a deterministic way, and yet compared to the times weather or individual error has caused inconsistencies in war, differences from expectation in such things has been MASSIVE in our history.

If we accept determinism in crop yields, there is absolutely no logical reason to reject determism in combat based on any "realism" argument. I asked that we cast preference aside until there's actually something workable for comparison and look to theory, but you're falling back an awful lot on preference.

Like I said, actual realism isn't so important to me. However, anomalous outcomes can and do happen in war.

However, they don't in civ IV right now, with the exception of early game warfare when the cost of one loss in :hammers: is too large a proportion of total :hammers:

Show me one example of bad RNG screwing someone with 40 rifles/cannons to the point of it being the determining factor in the game. In all the years and all the games posted on this very form, it has never happened even once. However, losing 8 axes to 3 archers (a rather profound difference in :hammers: investment) is very possible, and you lose instantly even if that was your only way out. I assert that this breaks from how the game plays mechanically in later wars and from its core experience (strategy + good planning = victory), to no benefit.

RNG combat is functionally deterministic mid-late game, so the primary purpose of this exercise is to "balance" the early game. And yes, prepping a rush early game would STILL be a tremendous risk (get backstabbed and opponent manages to defend and you're still screwed)...but in this case if you actually do outplay your opponent you don't get penalized simply because you did it early rather than late.
 
That's true, although if you say "nobody is going to force determinism on me", playing civ IV is interesting :lol:. In your case, you seem to prefer RNG combat specifically but the majority of your experience to otherwise be straight determinis, even including some aspets of combat :lol:.
 
I've experienced deterministic combat in Age of Empires (Age of Kings, a TBS).
The problem I have with civ combat is that healing is free. At least with RNG combat, even with a huge tech advantage, combat does result in the loss of hammers in the form of units lost. I think deterministic combat could result in cheaper wars in terms of hammers lost for a leading civ, potentially worsening the snowball effect.
 
I've experienced deterministic combat in Age of Empires (Age of Kings, a TBS).
The problem I have with civ combat is that healing is free. At least with RNG combat, even with a huge tech advantage, combat does result in the loss of hammers in the form of units lost. I think deterministic combat could result in cheaper wars in terms of hammers lost for a leading civ, potentially worsening the snowball effect.

Indeed, this is a real issue, especially against the AI but even against overmatched humans.

There were two proposals earlier in the thread. One, which is to simply remove the healing bonus upon taking a promotion, was implemented before we stopped. The second was to make healing cost something. We never made it that far, however, as we never decided on what kind of damage/battle was balanced.
 
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