What if the Japanese and Germans had resisted allied occupation?

[Brian Shanahan]

Hold on that is not entirely correct. Here is what happened, during the battle of Britain German strategy was to bomb RAF targets, however within weeks (the Luftwaffe estimated 2 weeks the RAF 1) of total collapse by the RAF a German bomber flight missed it's target and dropped it's bombs on London instead. The Brits responded by bombing Berlin, Hitler then failed his sanity check and ordered the switch from bombing RAF targets to bombing civilian targets. The Brits proceeded bomb the hell out of the German cities and factories.

A) any Luftwaffe estimate of RAF collapse was way off. Reichsmarshall Goring was exaggerating massively to keep on Hitler's good side.

B) The UK had material and technical advantage in aeroplanes over the Germans, along with sufficient pilots to fly them.

C) Radar.

The Battle of Britain never really put the UK in danger. Once Hitler (or his generals to be more exact) realised that Unternehmen Seelöwe was a non-starter there was pretty much nothing the Germans could come up with to compromise the UK in the war.

Edit: I've just seen what you've responded to Dachs and LightSpecta with, and I'd give you the following warning. Whatever you're reading drop it like the plague, for it is delitereous to your brain and feeding you obvious falsehoods.

 

[Racsoviale]

there is also the fact that the english pilots learned alot during the defence of the isles. From being rookies to experienced pilots would not take that long since they could be called on multiple missions a day, unlike their german counterparts who only had about 10-15 minutes to spend before having to return and refuel.

I admit that the germans might have had more experienced pilots in the beginning from the Spanish civil war, but they couldnt be where they were needed all the time.

And to echo Brian. Radar

EDIT: Response to Brian regarding technological level between the germans and english, I had come to believe the messerschmitt were quite a better machine than the Hawker Hurricane(I seem to recall the English did'nt really have that many spitfires at the time, so the usual line up were Hurricanes Vs. Messerschmitts)

Ahhhh, and now I started my eternal debate with myself about which aircraft I like the best: the Hurricane or the Spitfire the Hurricane is awesome in its simple design and durabillity(which always reminds me of the NASA/SOVIET solutions to writing in space) I mean the plane could almost be glued and/or stapled back together and ready for take-off 10 minutes later - Meaning It is awesome engineering. The Spitfire on the other hand is the sexiest machine ever built.

And both handle perfectly in combat flight simulator

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Well when I was talking about technical strengths I was thinking more along the lines of the German bombers, as far as I can gather, they severly restricted what the Luftwaffe could do in terms of the Messerscmitt, which was not so advanced that the RAF couldn't stand up to it anyway.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Amidst the objections Brian raised, I will also point out: Sanity Checks do not work that way.

 

[Racsoviale]

Me 12 hours later in a dark basement

Spit'fireui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhurricanegn fhtagn!!!!


Brian: I see your point with the bombers(I was only thinking of fighters)

 

[Hornblower]

It is a common myth that RAF fighter command was within days of collapse during the Battle of Britain before the ill chosen change of strategy by the Luftwaffe. I'm amazed that it is perpetuated given the evidence to the contrary. It is true that 11 Group (fighter group for SE England and the London approaches) bore the brunt of the German air assault and was badly depleted. Why do people forget that there were 3 other air groups in the British Isles all with their own pool of machines and pilots? It is true that the Battle of France and Norway had sapped quite a few hundred experienced pilots from the British prewar pool but there were still nearly 9000 pilots available. Even factoring in only 30% being in operational Sqn's the RAF was still producing around 300 aircraft a week and a nearly similar number of pilots from their training Sqn's in Canada, Sth Africa and closer to home. Dowding was prepared for crew and even group rotation but it never came to that. In a battle of production and attrition the Luftwaffe was on a losing proposition. That is even before we factor in Chain Home, Bletchley Park and Big Wing. Why oh why do we persist in romanticising the notion that it was a matter of days to the collapse of Fighter Command?!>?!

 

[privatehudson]

It often comes from two different perspectives.

From the British side of things there is a sort of romantic ideal of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. It goes alongside the ideal of standing alone in between the fall of France and Barbarossa which neatly ignores the various allies we fought alongside (albeit in some cases briefly) and either ignores the whole British Empire or just lumps it in as being "us" so not really counting.

From a German perspective its a major part of the theory that if the professional military minds had been left to run the war their way without the meddling of amateurs such as Goering and Hitler they would have won the war with ease. This of course neatly ignores those occasions when the military or sections of it agreed with the course of action Hitler chose to follow.

 

[rilnator]

It often comes from two different perspectives.
From a German perspective its a major part of the theory that if the professional military minds had been left to run the war their way without the meddling of amateurs such as Goering and Hitler they would have won the war with ease. This of course neatly ignores those occasions when the military or sections of it agreed with the course of action Hitler chose to follow.

'

Germany would have won the war by 1945. But thats when the atomic bombs would have started dropping.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Germany would have won the war by 1945. But thats when the atomic bombs would have started dropping.

Germany lost the war on 22nd June 1941, when the generals were still in charge of the army.

 

[Theige]

Germany lost the war on 22nd June 1941, when the generals were still in charge of the army.

That's highly debatable.

Also, was it not the opinion of the military establishment that invading the USSR was a bad idea in the first place?

 

[Brian Shanahan]

No they were planning for a war too, some of them weren't sure of the timing of it but the OKH were in favour of the war.

You can blame Hitler for the mismanagement of the economy, but you have to remember that the generals (in most cases) were at least as at fault as he was for the conduct of the war.

 

[rilnator]

In late 1941 Hitler named himself commander in cheif of the German army.

He was in charge, he had the last word, he wears the responsibility.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

In late 1941 Hitler named himself commander in cheif of the German army.

He was in charge, he had the last word, he wears the responsibility.

Hitler named himself CIC in 1934. It's a completely ceremonial position.

 

[Theige]

No they were planning for a war too, some of them weren't sure of the timing of it but the OKH were in favour of the war.

You can blame Hitler for the mismanagement of the economy, but you have to remember that the generals (in most cases) were at least as at fault as he was for the conduct of the war.

I'd hardly fault the generals at all. The command structure was a complete mess to begin with, for the entire duration of the war.

And the timing of the attack is a pretty important aspect of "whether or not they thought it was a good idea"

Hitler named himself CIC in 1934. It's a completely ceremonial position.

Hitler named himself The Oberbefehlshaber des Heeres (Commander of the Army') in 1941, a position he occupied till his suicide.