What IS First Strike exactly?

[Dissonance]

I, for one, find the more complicated first strike/initiative a little bit too cumbersome. Mostly from the perspective of having to keep this in mind while playing. A bit of an aside...

Spoiler Samurai :

I have not played as the Japanese, but I know a thing or two about the Samurai warriors. They traditionally carried, and were highly skilled with, powerful bows that they would use to initiate combat. A Samurai is a swordsman, an archer and a monk. That is one of the reason they were so powerful. Being an archer explains the first strikes.

Yumi, the bow they used (wiki)

It sounds like there are three attacks being discussed - range, stealth and speed. I don't think they should necessarily be the same thing.

Range - I like the "distance" variable concept. Units are assigned range; each round, range decreases and superior range provides free attacks. IE archer would have 5 range, vs Stone Axeman range 0. This equates to Archer having 5 free attacks. Cover promotions could decrease enemy range (large shield making distant combat ineffective, see the movie 300). Ammunition is an interesting way to do it, but I find it "too complex to remember in-game" as per my header.

- Units should probably have a preferred range setting, so two archer units don't go into melee
- An additional mechanic mentioned previously could be adding "ranged combat" to melee units, which would give them a (potentially weaker) short-range attack, and still have preferred range at 0

EDIT: As an interesting mechanic, spear units could be given range 1 (just above melee)

Stealth - why not rework this alltogether? Just give a "backstab" promotion, where on attack (and only on attack) the stealth units simply removes % of target current/maximum health automatically before combat ensues.
- and/or automatically set defender range to 0 (promotion?)
- and/or automatically deal small % of defender health each round (promotion?)

This way, they have a unique approach and can get a nice drop on stacks. Detection units would allow to complete circumvent that given that you can spot them before they reach you.

EDIT: This could be combined with Range for later units, creating very effective Snipers

Speed - horses, or terrain knowledge, or whatever. If range is implemented, this could double range decrease per turn. This could also provide "expertise" strikes, such as avoiding damage % or dealing double damage chance.

EDIT: This could also be a unique mechanic to INCREASE range. This could potentially result in very unpleasant situations where a mounted archer is able to evade slower melee units. Such ability could be tied to a promotion, have shorter max range, and the unit should be expensive - but it would also be historically accurate

Spoiler Justification :

In terms of Speed, I'm thinking of two situations - cavalry charge, and forest ambush. Both would decrease the effectiveness of archers, and provide superior combat opportunities. This could be a crushing Lance charge, or jumping from behind trees. The grouping under "speed" is for simplicity of thinking, organization and promotions

I find this easier to think of
Range = free attacks
Stealth = free damage
Speed = better vs ranged; better at fighting
Combo = Specialized, "OP" units

 

[MagnusIlluminus]

As a bit of an aside from the actual discussion, Civ Unit Strength would be more analogous to D&D CR (Challenge Rating), which is an approximation of how much of a threat that unit represents. Not saying we should rename it, that could step on some toes...

I agree that a more in-depth method could be a good thing, though adjusting the promotions a bit could work as a stop-gap measure until the in-depth system is in play. Assuming of course that the mechanics for the resistance to First Strikes is there.

I understand and agree that people will always go to lengths to defend themselves, at least where they think they are in danger. However, others will find ways around. Clearing underbrush is good, but persons could still sneak up under cover of darkness or with camouflage netting. If you have seen the movie "Predator" then you have seen that even high-tech sensors can be fooled, sometimes by the simplest methods. In other words, I disagree with your statement that "Some units will know you're there no matter how 'good' you are at stealth." Apparently so do you as later in your post you mentioned making it an opposed check, and that I can support. Other than that quibble, I agree with your positions on Stealth so far.

While some inspiration could be drawn from D&D (in it's various iterations), we should keep in mind the difference in scale. The combat & stats for D&D are scaled around single person / creature to small groups thereof. Civilization units are hundreds (if not thousands) of persons. Thus using the D&D stats (Str, Dex, etc) would be a bit off as they would tend to average out across the group. Also, the scale of time is different. D&D deals with (generally, campaigns vary) usually about a decade or less, whereas a unit can survive for thousands of years in Civ. Obviously in Civ it's not the same persons across all that time. Especially in the early game where one turn can be 250 years.

 

[Taxman66]

Tbird: I don't want to sidetrack the conversation and feel free to PM me if you want to continue this, but while I don't mind the extra unit classifications and such I absolutely and completely reject the idea of lingering effects on units. I made an arguement against them when you first mentioned such and haven't changed my opinion.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I, for one, find the more complicated first strike/initiative a little bit too cumbersome. Mostly from the perspective of having to keep this in mind while playing. A bit of an aside...

Spoiler Samurai :

I have not played as the Japanese, but I know a thing or two about the Samurai warriors. They traditionally carried, and were highly skilled with, powerful bows that they would use to initiate combat. A Samurai is a swordsman, an archer and a monk. That is one of the reason they were so powerful. Being an archer explains the first strikes.

Yumi, the bow they used (wiki)

It sounds like there are three attacks being discussed - range, stealth and speed. I don't think they should necessarily be the same thing.

Range - I like the "distance" variable concept. Units are assigned range; each round, range decreases and superior range provides free attacks. IE archer would have 5 range, vs Stone Axeman range 0. This equates to Archer having 5 free attacks. Cover promotions could decrease enemy range (large shield making distant combat ineffective, see the movie 300). Ammunition is an interesting way to do it, but I find it "too complex to remember in-game" as per my header.

- Units should probably have a preferred range setting, so two archer units don't go into melee
- An additional mechanic mentioned previously could be adding "ranged combat" to melee units, which would give them a (potentially weaker) short-range attack, and still have preferred range at 0

EDIT: As an interesting mechanic, spear units could be given range 1 (just above melee)

Stealth - why not rework this alltogether? Just give a "backstab" promotion, where on attack (and only on attack) the stealth units simply removes % of target current/maximum health automatically before combat ensues.
- and/or automatically set defender range to 0 (promotion?)
- and/or automatically deal small % of defender health each round (promotion?)

This way, they have a unique approach and can get a nice drop on stacks. Detection units would allow to complete circumvent that given that you can spot them before they reach you.

EDIT: This could be combined with Range for later units, creating very effective Snipers

Speed - horses, or terrain knowledge, or whatever. If range is implemented, this could double range decrease per turn. This could also provide "expertise" strikes, such as avoiding damage % or dealing double damage chance.

EDIT: This could also be a unique mechanic to INCREASE range. This could potentially result in very unpleasant situations where a mounted archer is able to evade slower melee units. Such ability could be tied to a promotion, have shorter max range, and the unit should be expensive - but it would also be historically accurate

Spoiler Justification :

In terms of Speed, I'm thinking of two situations - cavalry charge, and forest ambush. Both would decrease the effectiveness of archers, and provide superior combat opportunities. This could be a crushing Lance charge, or jumping from behind trees. The grouping under "speed" is for simplicity of thinking, organization and promotions

I find this easier to think of
Range = free attacks
Stealth = free damage
Speed = better vs ranged; better at fighting
Combo = Specialized, "OP" units

Some good food for thought. I'll try to take it all under consideration anyhow.

As a bit of an aside from the actual discussion, Civ Unit Strength would be more analogous to D&D CR (Challenge Rating), which is an approximation of how much of a threat that unit represents. Not saying we should rename it, that could step on some toes...

I agree that a more in-depth method could be a good thing, though adjusting the promotions a bit could work as a stop-gap measure until the in-depth system is in play. Assuming of course that the mechanics for the resistance to First Strikes is there.

I understand and agree that people will always go to lengths to defend themselves, at least where they think they are in danger. However, others will find ways around. Clearing underbrush is good, but persons could still sneak up under cover of darkness or with camouflage netting. If you have seen the movie "Predator" then you have seen that even high-tech sensors can be fooled, sometimes by the simplest methods. In other words, I disagree with your statement that "Some units will know you're there no matter how 'good' you are at stealth." Apparently so do you as later in your post you mentioned making it an opposed check, and that I can support. Other than that quibble, I agree with your positions on Stealth so far.

While some inspiration could be drawn from D&D (in it's various iterations), we should keep in mind the difference in scale. The combat & stats for D&D are scaled around single person / creature to small groups thereof. Civilization units are hundreds (if not thousands) of persons. Thus using the D&D stats (Str, Dex, etc) would be a bit off as they would tend to average out across the group. Also, the scale of time is different. D&D deals with (generally, campaigns vary) usually about a decade or less, whereas a unit can survive for thousands of years in Civ. Obviously in Civ it's not the same persons across all that time. Especially in the early game where one turn can be 250 years.

Very good points made here.

Tbird: I don't want to sidetrack the conversation and feel free to PM me if you want to continue this, but while I don't mind the extra unit classifications and such I absolutely and completely reject the idea of lingering effects on units. I made an arguement against them when you first mentioned such and haven't changed my opinion.

I certainly don't mind optioning out things that are experienced as negative by any players so I will be sure to plan for those effects to be optional.

Have you played FFH2 and seen the way their (simplistic) lingering negative effects work in play? Might be something to compare to anyhow.

 

[AIAndy]

Personally I think that if put in effort here to make it more realistic we should go from all those 1 on 1 fights to stack on stack fights in which your melee guys can prevent the enemy melee from reaching your ranged and forcing it into melee.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Personally I think that if put in effort here to make it more realistic we should go from all those 1 on 1 fights to stack on stack fights in which your melee guys can prevent the enemy melee from reaching your ranged and forcing it into melee.

LOVE your thinking here. I've been doing a LOT of pondering on that myself. In some ways this is a big part of moving towards that rather complex goal. On the surface it may not appear to be, but the differentiation in Distance and H2H strengths becomes a part of the mechanism.

Step 1: Follow the adjustments to Distance vs H2H fighting I'm suggesting here (and apparently we'll need to work out some stealth mechanisms along the way since we're taking First Strike as we know it out of that equation we'll need to replace it with something more appropriate.)

Step 2: Units inherit the best Allied Distance fighting strength and details in the stack when the stack is attacked. Attacking units (probably) inherit the best Allied Distance fighting strength and details in the stack from where they are attacking. H2H Strength (or standard 'as we currently know it' strength) is what is evaluated for choosing which unit defends the stack. (My only real question in mind here is whether I should have Distance fighters back up attackers but I'll have to see how the numbers crunch out and how balance appears to go on that matter I think.)

Step 3: Unleash the Strength in Numbers mechanism to provide some ongoing support from the rest of the stack (and continuing support from the distance units behind you, whether you're attacking or defending) during the battle. (Note, unless greatly bugged, this is pretty much ready to go with a few game option dependant promotions for Units by CC. The main thing that was in my way for this was needing to implement the Throwing CC. I may also want those chariots and wagons to be wheeled too but that's not AS critical.)

Step 4: Work in Support and Overcrowding situation dependent auto promotions so that stacks further support each other in a teamwork sense and also can get too crowded and begin to lose effectiveness.

With all steps in place, we keep the same Core CivIV singular unit approach while at the same time being able to more greatly emulate the dynamics of actual historical warfare and teamwork between differing unit types that we saw on the fields of battle.

 

[ls612]

Personally I think that if put in effort here to make it more realistic we should go from all those 1 on 1 fights to stack on stack fights in which your melee guys can prevent the enemy melee from reaching your ranged and forcing it into melee.

Or your ranged can shoot enemy melee before they can harm you. It sort of already happens the way things work now, ranged usually defend first and kill many enemies before said enemies can engage your melee. The one major difference is that the ranged don't do too well on offense, maybe Archer Bombard should have an overhaul to make it more balanced.

 

[Dissonance]

Or your ranged can shoot enemy melee before they can harm you. It sort of already happens the way things work now, ranged usually defend first and kill many enemies before said enemies can engage your melee. The one major difference is that the ranged don't do too well on offense, maybe Archer Bombard should have an overhaul to make it more balanced.

FFH2 was mentioned earlier; they have really effective ranged units. Almost to effective in my experience, but definitely a step up from "-8% damage!"

 

[Faustmouse]

First set of Promotions we currently have. If they have firststrike, I just wrote "(FS)". If their Firststrikes should be removed I mentioned that and if I propose they should get Firststrike(s) or a bonus against units with Firststrike I mentioned this as well.
Keep in mind that I don't always know what a Promotion really MEANS, so have a look on your on please!

Spoiler :

Accuracy
Accuracy II
Accuracy III
Adventurer (has FS, should be removed)
Aggressive
Air Defense I (might get FS)
Air Defense II (might get FS)
Air Defense III (might get FS)
Air to Air Missiles I (might get FS)
Air to Air Missiles II (might get FS)
Air to Air Missiles III (might get FS)
Alchemist I [Spy]
Alchemist II [Spy]
Alchemist III [Spy]
Ambush
Ambush II
Ambush III
Amphibious
Animal Desert Save [Animal]
Animal Dunes Save [Animal]
Animal Hunter
Animal Permafrost Save [Animal]
Animal Salt Flat Save [Animal]
Animal Snow Save [Animal]
Animal Tundra Save [Animal]
Anti Biological Warfare
Anti Tank Defense I (might get FS)
Anti Tank Defense II (might get FS)
Anti Tank Defense III (might get FS)
Apprentice [Hero] (has FS)
Arctic Combat I
Arctic Combat II
Arctic Combat III
Arctic Nomad I
Arctic Nomad II
Arctic Nomad III
Armour Upgrade MK I
Armour Upgrade MK II
Armour Upgrade MK III
Armour-Piercing Shells
Assistance of An
Assistance of Enki (has FS)
Assistance of Enlil (has FS)
Assistance of Inanna
Assistance of Ki (immune to FS)
Automatic Repairs MK I
Automatic Repairs MK II
Automatic Repairs MK III(Why has this City Attack?)
Bamboo Armor
Bandit [Hero]
Banditry I
Banditry II
Banditry III
Barbarian Hunter
Bard [Hero]
Bard I
Bard II
Bard III
Bark
Barrage I (might get FS)
Barrage II (might get FS)
Barrage III (might get FS)
Berzerker I (has FS, should be removed)
Berzerker II (has FS, should be removed)
Berzerker III (has FS, should be removed)
Blitz (might add a bonus AGAINST FS)
Bloodhound I
Bloodhound II
Bloodhound III
Bodyguard [Hero] (has FS, should be removed)
Bombarding I (might get FS)
Bombarding II (might get FS)
Bombarding III (might get FS)
Builder [Hero]
Bushman
Camouflage (Immunity to FS)
Chaff
Chain Shot
Charge
Charge II
Charge III
Chemical I
Chemical II
Chemical III
Chivalry I
Chivalry II
Chivalry III (Immunity to FS)
City Garrison I (might get FS)
City Garrison II (might get FS)
City Garrison III (might get FS)
City Garrison IV (might get FS)
City Rider I (might get Bonus AGAINST FS)
City Rider II (might get Bonus AGAINST FS)
City Rider III (might get Bonus AGAINST FS)
City Rider IV (might get Bonus AGAINST FS)
City Rider V (might get Bonus AGAINST FS; has FS that should be removed)
Cliff Walker
Coastal Assault I
Coastal Assault II
Coastal Assault III
Coastal Guard I
Coastal Guard II
Coastal Guard III
Combat AI 1.0
Combat AI 2.0
Combat AI 3.0
Combat AI 4.0
Combat I
Combat II
Combat III
Combat IV
Combat V
Combat VI
Commando
Copper Plating (Immunity against FS)
Counter-Battery Fire (FS)
Cover (Might add bonus AGAINST FS)
Cover II (Might add bonus AGAINST FS)
Cover III (Might add bonus AGAINST FS)
Crowded [?Please have a look at this] (removes FS)
Crusader
Deception I [Spy]
Deception II [Spy]
Deception III [Spy]
Dedication
Defensive Protocols 1.0 (Might add bonus AGAINST FS)
Defensive Protocols 2.0 (Might add bonus AGAINST FS)
Defensive Protocols 3.0 (Might add bonus AGAINST FS)
Depth Charges
Desert Combat I
Desert Combat II
Desert Combat III
Desert Nomad I
Desert Nomad II
Desert Nomad III
Desert Worker I [Worker]
Desert Worker II [Worker]
Desert Worker III [Worker]
Drill I (FS)
Drill II (FS)
Drill III (FS)
Drill IV (FS)
Drill V (FS)
Electro-Magnetic Armour MK I (Might add bonus AGAINST FS)
Electro-Magnetic Armour MK II (Might add bonus AGAINST FS)
Electro-Magnetic Armour MK III (Might add bonus AGAINST FS)
Escape Artist I [Spy]
Escape Artist II [Spy]
Experienced Artist
Extra Fuel Tank
Fanatic
Field Worker I [Worker]
Field Worker II [Worker]
Field Worker III [Worker]
Fieldsman I
Fieldsman II
Fieldsman III
Fire Ship (adds FS, should be removed)
Firearms I (FS)
Firearms II (FS)
Firearms III (FS)
Flaming Arrows I
Flaming Arrows II
Flaming Arrows III
Flanking I (might add bonus AGAINST FS)
Flanking II (might add bonus AGAINST FS)
Flanking III (Immunity to FS)
Flower War
Forest Worker I [Worker]
Forest Worker II [Worker]
Forest Worker III [Worker]
Forestry
Formation I
Formation II
Formation III
Forward Observers
Fusion MegaCannon (-FS, should add FS instead)
Fusion Power Source
Fusion Shells
Fuzzy Logic (FS)
Gentlemen
Global Awareness (FS, Immunity to FS; should both be removed)
Global Operations I (might add FS)
Global Operations II (Immunity to FS)
Global Operations III (FS, Immunity to FS)
Global Positioning System
Glorious I
Glorious II
Glorious III
Grape Shot (Might add FS)
Great Hunter (FS)
Green Warden
Ground Weather Reports
Guardian 1.0
Guardian 2.0
Guardian 3.0
Guerilla I
Guerilla II
Guerilla III

Oh, and some has the "I, II and III" while others just has "II and III" but the "I" is with no number afterwards, you might want to change that!

 

[Thunderbrd]

Great job Faustmouse!

I'll have to get myself real clear on what 'the plan' will be exactly. I'm trying to consider how I can take all the considerations brought up here on this thread into full account while keeping in line with the intentions I mentioned in the first post. I think even a first 'simple' solution will require being able to replace the first strikes that are not 'distance fighting based' with something... And this evaluation helps to see where our non-distance fighting based first strikes lie. For some of them I have no idea what they were supposed to represent exactly - I suppose it was, in many cases, simply an abstract for a couple of the envisionable causes to have first strike. That's where it gets tough...

Take the Adventurer promo for instance... Would ALL the units that have access to this promo have a distance fighting mechanism? Do the first strikes stem from the units being faster at attacking? Do they stem from stealth? What was the original intention of putting first strike on there in the first place? If removed, what should replace it? These are things I'll have to give further consideration to before jumping in and tweaking things I think.

 

[Faustmouse]

Jeah, I see your problem. While making my suggestions als also thought about FS. I just saw them as "has Range" and the bonus against it as "has speed / heavy armour / is a hard to hit target"

Here is round two:

Spoiler :

Hardy I
Hardy II
Hardy III
Heal
Heat Seeking (might get FS)
Heavy Aid I
Heavy Aid II
Heavy Aid III
Herbal Cures
Heroic
Heroic II
Hill Worker I [Worker]
Hill Worker II [Worker]
Hill Worker III [Worker]
Hillsman
Hit and Run (might be good for Mounted Archers)
Holy Trinity
Howl
Hunter - Great (has FS, either remove it or limit it to trowing/shooting Hunters)
Hunter I (has FS)
Hunter II (has FS)
Hunter III (has FS)
Hunting Dog I
Hunting Dog II
Hunting Dog III
Hunting Sight
Hunting Sight II
Imperial Guard
Improved Radar (might get FS)
Improvise I [Spy]
Improvise II [Spy]
Improvise III [Spy]
Improvise IV [Spy]
Improvise V [Spy]
Industry Spionage
Initiative I [Commander] (has FS, should be removed)
Initiative II [Commander] (has FS, should be removed)
Initiative III [Commander] (has FS, should be removed)
Initiative VI [Commander] (has FS, should be removed)
Instigator I [Spy]
Instigator II [Spy]
Instigator III [Spy]
Inception I (might get FS)
Inception II (might get FS)
Jump Jets (might get bonus AGAINST FS)
Kamikaze (has FS, should be removed)
Kanai (FS, Immunity to FS)
Land Warrior I (has FS)
Land Warrior II (has FS)
Land Warrior III (has FS) [Since only "range" Units can get it, it might stay]
Land Animal is Completely Harmless [Animals]
Land Animal is Harmless [Animals]
Land Animal is Mostly Harmless [Animals]
Land Animal is non-threatening [Animals]
Laser Guidance (might get FS)
Leadership
Leviathan I [Animals]
Leviathan II [Animals]
Leviathan III [Animals]
Lieutenant [Hero]
Local Lord
Logistics I
Logistics II
Logistics III
Loose Formation (might get bonus AGAINST FS)
Looter
Low Altitude Maneuvers (has FS)
Loyal [Spy]
Loyal Servant [Hero]
Loyalty
Manuevering I (might get a bonus AGAINST FS)
Manuevering II (might get a bonus AGAINST FS)
Manuevering III (might get a bonus AGAINST FS)
Marauder
March
Marksmanship I (has FS)
Marksmanship II (has FS)
Marksmanship III (has FS, Immunity to FS which should be removed)
Martial Arts I
Martial Arts II (has FS, should be removed)
Martial Arts III (has FS, should be removed)
Medic I
Medic II
Medic III
Merchant [Hero]
Messenger [Hero] (has FS, should be removed)
Minister [Hero]
Mobility (Might get a bonus AGAINST FS)
Mobility Aid I (Might get a bonus AGAINST FS)
Mobility Aid II (Might get a bonus AGAINST FS)
Mobility Aid III (Might get a bonus AGAINST FS)
Morale
Morale I [Commander]
Morale II [Commander]
Morale III [Commander]
Morale IV [Commander]
Morale V [Commander]
Motherland I
Motherland II
Motherland III
Mountain Leader
Mountaineer
Mujahid
Nanoids
Napalm Bombs
Native Highlander I
Native Highlander II
Native Highlander III
Native Plainsmen I
Native Plainsmen II
Native Seafaring I
Native Seafaring II
Native Seafaring III
Native Woodsmen I
Native Woodsmen II
Native Woodsmen III
Naval Weather Forecasts
Navigation I
Navigation II
Navigation III
Offensive Protocols 1.0 (might get FS and/or bonus AGAINST FS)
Offensive Protocols 2.0 (might get FS and/or bonus AGAINST FS)
Offensive Protocols 3.0 (might get FS and/or bonus AGAINST FS)
Officer's Commission
Operations I [Commander]
Operations II [Commander]
Operations III [Commander]
Operations IV [Commander]
Order of Ormazd
Overwhelm (has FS, should be removed)
Pack Hunter I
Pack Hunter II
Pack Hunter III
Pankration
Paramedic I
Paramedic II
Paramedic III
Partisan I
Partisan II
Partisan III
Patrol I
Patrol II
Patrol III
Pharaoh's Propaganda (has FS)
Pinch
Pinch II
Pinch III
Pirate I
Pirate II
Pirate III
Poison Tips (might get FS due to slowing the enemy)
Poisoned Arrows (might get FS due to slowing the enemy)
Polar Worker I [Worker]
Polar Worker II [Worker]
Polar Worker III [Worker]
Policing I
Policing II
Policing III
Policing IV
Policing V
Power Source Upgrade MK I (might get bonus AGAINST FS)
Power Source Upgrade MK II (might get bonus AGAINST FS)
Power Source Upgrade MK III (might get bonus AGAINST FS)
Precision Bombing
Priest [Hero]
Quantum Algorithms (has FS, not sure why)
Racing Dog I (might get a bonus AGAINST FS)
Racing Dog II (might get a bonus AGAINST FS)
Racing Dog III (might get a bonus AGAINST FS)
Raider I (has FS, should be removed, add bonus AGAINST FS)
Raider II (has FS, should be removed, add bonus AGAINST FS)
Raider III (has FS, should be removed, add bonus AGAINST FS)
Range I
Range II
Ranged Aid I (might get FS)
Ranged Aid II (might get FS)
Ranged Aid III (might get FS)
Rapid Deployment I
Rapid Deployment II
Refuel in Air
Reinforced Structure
Rescue Dog I
Rescue Dog II
Rescue Dog III (all 3 excactly the same?!)
Respawn 1
Respawn 2
Rugged Combat I
Rugged Combat II
Rugged Combat III
Sand Devil
Scholar [Hero]
Scout Aid I
Scout Aid II
Scout Aid III (has FS, should be removed)
Sea Creature I
Sea Creature II
Sea Animal is Completely Harmless [Animals]
Sea Animal is Harmless [Animals]
Sea Animal is Mostly Harmless [Animals]
Sea Animal is non-threatening [Animals]
Seamanship I
Seamanship II
Seamanship III (has FS, should be removed)
Security I [Spy]
Security II [Spy]
Security III [Spy]
Segmented Armor
Self-Destruct
Sensors I
Sensors II (has FS)
Sensors III (has FS)
Sentry
Sentry II
Sentry III
Shadowstalker I (has FS, should be removed. might get some bonus AGAINST FS)
Shadowstalker II (has FS, should be removed. might get some bonus AGAINST FS)
Shadowstalker III (has FS, should be removed. might get some bonus AGAINST FS)
Shielding I (might get bonus AGAINST FS)
Shielding II (might get bonus AGAINST FS)
Shielding III (might get bonus AGAINST FS)
Shock
Shock II
Shock III
Siege Aid I (might get FS)
Siege Aid II (might get FS)
Siege Aid III (might get FS)
Siege Engineering I (might get FS)
Siege Engineering II (might get FS)
Siege Engineering III (might get FS)
Siege Master (might get FS)
Silver Tongue I [Diplomats]
Silver Tongue II [Diplomats]
Silver Tongue III [Diplomats]
Single use only
Slavery
Small Diameter Bomb
Sneak
Sniper (has FS)
Sonar (might get some bonus AGAINST FS)
Speed (might get some bonus AGAINST FS)
Sphinx
Spouse [Hero] (has FS, should be removed)
Stalk Prey (immune to FS)
Stealth I (has FS, should be removed. might get some bonus AGAINST FS)
Stealth II (has FS, should be removed. might get some bonus AGAINST FS)
Stealth III (has FS, should be removed. might get some bonus AGAINST FS)
Strategic [Commander]
Strategist [Hero]
Strike Force I [Commander]
Strike Force II [Commander]
Strike Force III [Commander]
Super Cavitation (has FS)
Suppression Fire (might gets some FS)
Suppressive Fire (might get some FS)
Tactican
Tactics
Tactics I [Commander]
Tactics II [Commander]
Tactics III [Commander]
Tactics IV [Commander]
Tattoo
Terrain Analysis 1.0
Terrain Analysis 2.0
Terrain Analysis 3.0
Top Gun Pilot
Torpedoes
Track Scent I
Track Scent II
Track Scent III
Transport I
Transport II
Transport III
Trench I (might get some bonus AGAINST FS)
Trench II (might get some bonus AGAINST FS)
Trench III (Immune to FS)
Upgrade Discount
Urban Tactics I
Urban Tactics II
Urban Tactics III
Veteran Pilot
Waiden
War Veteran [Hero]
Waterways I
Waterways II
Weapon Upgrade MK I (might get FS)
Weapon Upgrade MK II (might get FS)
Weapon Upgrade MK III (might get FS)
Weather Forecasts
Wetland Combat I
Wetland Combat II
Wetland Combat III
Winter Born
Woodsman I
Woodsman II
Woodsman III (has FS, should be removed)
Wootz Steel
Zen (Immune to FS)

I'll "clear" this list from all "FS" and post it somewere else so we have a general list of all Promotions that are in game.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Again, outstanding work! You've accomplished ONE major thing for sure, beyond helping with the first strike issue... you've actually text listed ALL our promos... nice That'll really help to start a google doc on promos with!

And again, the analysis is great! Lots to think about here

 

[Faustmouse]

Thanks!

So, if I'm bored and don't want to do uni-stuff... Should I have a look on the units with and without FS?
Is there a text-list with all the units?
Isn't it possible to create one with a XML-Reader?
If it has to be done manually I could start with this Probably just the Melee, Mounted, Archer and Thrower Units until you know for sure what you want to do with FS and Gunpowder (or more advanched) Units.

 

[MagnusIlluminus]

With part two, I've noticed a few possible typos so far. With "Jump Sets" did you mean "Jump Jets"? If not, what is that promo?

The second is with "Power Source Upgrade MK I". You have it listed three times. Are the second and third supposed to be II and III?

If First Strike is changing to mean ranged attacks/RoF only, then why don't/shouldn't "Range I" and "Range II" have it?

Yes, I'm being nit-picky, but I'm trying to improve the quality of the list.

I also had a thought about Hero units and their promotions in relation to the comment I made above regarding scale. Obviously, a Hero unit cannot just be that single specific person, but rather has to be a group consisting of the Hero, various followers, bodyguards, lackeys, and probably a scattering of elite warriors of all types available at that tech level. Thus even if the Hero themselves was not historically known to use ranged attacks, it's certain that some in the unit would. While I'm not saying that their base stats should reflect everything available, their promotions should, and for the most part do. What I'm saying here is that the promotions available to Hero units should be a bit more broad than normal ones, as we are talking about the elite of the elite.

 

[Faustmouse]

With part two, I've noticed a few possible typos so far. With "Jump Sets" did you mean "Jump Jets"? If not, what is that promo?

Hm... I used vanilla V30 for the list, it might be changed now. Pretty sure that it was called "Jump Sets" there.

The second is with "Power Source Upgrade MK I". You have it listed three times. Are the second and third supposed to be II and III?

Oups... My fault. It's fixed now.
There are some Promos like:
"Shock" -> Without "I"
"Shock II"
"Shock III"

Those should be "fixed".

If First Strike is changing to mean ranged attacks/RoF only, then why don't/shouldn't "Range I" and "Range II" have it?

Look at what the Promotion does. For me it sounds that it isn't increasing the Range of a Unit. Even if the name says it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'll let you guys debate those points as I haven't looked too deeply yet.

@Faustmouse: You were wondering if it would be beneficial to go through the units with an eye for first strikes - yes. Just as important as the promos.

I've got some mechanics considerations whirling around in my head here. I'll come up with something solid from a mathematical point of view here shortly I think. Obviously, Koshling's point about the odds mechanism and how to work with that is the most weighing consideration. It's certainly going to be tough to work that end.

I'm seriously considering altering things so that units and promos don't directly gain first strikes but rather allow first strikes to be the sum calculated total of a number of factors they do gain.

For example, something along the lines of Range * Rate of Fire = # of first strikes from distance. Stealth, when attacking, - Perception of Defender = # of first strikes from Stealth. # of First Strikes of Defender - # of First Strikes from Stealth = (+)=# of First Strikes for Defender while (-) = # of First Strikes for Attacker.

This would be the simple answer but both stealth and distance should have a variable strength which is where it gets really complex on the odds.

Additionally, I'm thinking Strike Speed may be a factor. Something like all units default to 1.0. This would be the # of attacks in a round so to speak. Each round any deviation from that base one is added (or subtracted) and once it compiles to a full -1 or a full +1 the unit gains a mid-combat first strike added suddenly, or the opponent gains one at a -1 total (which would not mean its necessarily a distance attack - in fact this is mostly all about H2H fighting.)

So for example, a unit with 1.1 Strike Speed would gain a free first strike round every 10th round of fighting. A unit with .9 Strike Speed would give its opponent a free first strike round every 10 rounds of fighting.

Thus, first strike, as a component, continues to work basically as programmed now. Except that the way units obtain first strikes gets a lot deeper in its evaluation.

So as an example, Initiative I, a Commander promo that currently gives the benefiting units a First Strike, could give those units, instead, a one point improvement to Rate of Fire (and maybe Strike Speed). So those units that have a distance attack, and thus a Distance Rating, would benefit. Say an affected Rock Thrower (poor example I know but let's just run with it for the sake of an example) that has 1 Distance and 1 Rate of Fire normally, would have 1 First Strike. Now, being affected, he has 1 Distance and 2 Rate of Fire, thus he has 2 First Strikes. But his equally affected Stone Axeman companion has 0 Distance and 0 Rate of Fire and now has 0 Distance and 1 Rate of Fire and now has 0 First Strikes still due to the fact that 0 * 1 is still 0.

But let's say the promo also adds .1 to the Strike Speed. Now the Stone Thrower AND the Stone Axemen both have a Strike Speed of lets say a base 1 so each now stands at 1.1 and will be getting a free First Strike (which would apply to whatever form of fighting is taking place at the time it affects them) at round 10. Of course, if fighting each other, that first strike cancels out the other as it normally would, even though this mechanism means the first strike is introduced to the units during the middle of the fight rather than just at the beginning of it.

Anyhow, I could go further with examples but what do y'all think of this consideration so far? Initially, this could be setup rather easily without having to mess with the odds mechanism too extensively to update for this. The strength differences in fighting power during various phases will be much tougher to account for and would then be developed after this adjustment.

 

[MagnusIlluminus]

@Faustmouse: Sorry, I commented on the list without looking up what the promos actually do. I'll look at those at some point.

@Thunderbrd: At first, that seemed a bit overly complex, but looking at it further it's really very intuitive and *seems* to cover everything. Looks good so far.

 

[Faustmouse]

I agree, it looks like a good system. I just don't get the difference between Rate of Fire for Range and Strike Speed.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm thinking that Strike Speed variations would only accumulate during non-first strike (or perhaps later, when distance is officially defined in the combat mechanism, only during non-distance) rounds. Thus it really would only count for H2H rounds of combat while Rate of Fire would apply to Distance.

Why the difference? Well, first of all, distance fire is about getting in as many shots as you can before your opponent has closed the distance (assuming your opponent is attempting to). So Rate of Fire covers the amount of valid attacks that a unit can make with its distance weapon for each 'space' of distance a normal foot soldier would be able to cross in an approach. Thus Range * Rate of Fire = base first strikes for the distance fighter. These first strikes would all take place at the beginning of the battle as first strikes currently normally do.

But for those variations in the speed of a combatant's stikes, strike speed defines those moments where the fractions of extra or less speed have added up to the point where another attack is snuck in by your unit or your opponent's unit (if you're slower than the standard). Generally, this would be more applicable to H2H fighting guidelines since these 'inserted' first strikes into the middle of a conflict are taking place not just at the beginning of the fight (during approach.)

So Strike Speed would apply to melee weaponry and hand to hand combat skills. While Rate of Fire would apply to Distance weapons and distance combat skills. The ratings work a bit differently.

I was also considering (Rate of Fire * Distance)/2 may be a more appropriate way of calculating distance first strikes (with .5 equalling a Chance First Strike). This would mute the effect of both a distance integer and a rate of fire integer, hopefully enough to give more variability in the amount of first strikes achievable without it getting to become an overwhelming amount.

 

[0100010]

Someone said don't run the combat sim in game in order to calculate the odds.

I agree, however.... do run the combat sim by copying your code elsewhere and generate a large table of odds, and store it in a file.

To determine combat odds in game, look up the appropriate predetermined table entry.

You may not find a perfect match in the table for a particular match-up, but you should be able to find the closest matches and split the difference.

(The above thought though was for one on one fights not the stack vs stack fights mentioned as a future possibility. Stack vs stack might make the number of pair up combos to precalculate untenable)