What is mimimum number of turns for 6 cities?

[DaveMcW]

If you want a better scoring system than just # of cities, try this:

/turn = 4 points
/turn = 2.5 points
/turn = 1 point
/turn = 1 point

Your empire of 6 marble+deer cities (4*3 + 2.5*4) * 6
plus 1 worker chopping (2.5*5)
running at 0% science to pay citiy maintenence
is worth 144 points.

Can you score higher than 144 points in 25 turns?

What is the biggest score you can get by turn 32?

 

[cv431410]

Three questions?

(1) How do I get this, "1 worker chopping (2.5*5)"? i.e. why chopping is 5P on average (ceiling of 13/3)?

(2) I assume populations do not get points directly; they get points through FPC value, correct?

(3) I assume units do not add points, correct?

Looks like it is very easy to top 144; because a new city take a minimum of 9 turns and it mere adds:

(4*3 + 2.5*4) = 22 points.

Growing a city to size 2 with corn/rice worth 4*6F = 24 points and it takes less than 7 turns:

Improvement: 4 turns
14 foods to size 2, that's 3 turns with rice/corn

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Marble hill city center plus grassland deer gives 3 4.

Am I missing something here? Grassland Deer is 30, so a Marble Plains Hill City Center (23) + +10 = 33.

All 6 cities are up by turn 25.

Can someone top this?

Even using the posted 'formula' to the letter, I get somewhat different results. I played through 30 turns a few times trying different combinations of build orders, and this is the best I could get:

• Turn 00: City #1 founded: starts Settler (8); start Bronze Working (10)
• Turn 08: City #1 builds Settler #2: starts Settler (7) (overflow of 4)
• Turn 10: City #2 founded: starts Worker (6); BW researched: start The Wheel (6) @ 90%
• Turn 15: City #1 builds Settler #3: starts Settler (7) (overflow of 2)
• Turn 16: City #2 builds Worker #1: starts Settler (8); The Wheel researched: start Pottery (7); Worker #1 moves to forest by future City #3
• Turn 17: City #3 founded: starts Settler (8); Pottery (8) @ 70%; Worker #1 starts chopping outside City #3
• Turn 22: City #1 builds Settler #4: starts Worker (6)
• Turn 23: City #3 builds Settler #5: starts Worker (5); Worker #1 starts building Roads & Cottages
• Turn 24: City #2 builds Settler #6: starts Warrior (1)
• Turn 25: Cities #4, #5 & #6 founded; Pottery researched: start Agriculture (27) @ 10%
• Turn 28: Cities #1 & #3 build Workers #2 & #3

I played on Monarch to get a better feel for what the tech pace would be like ... even working no tiles the whole time, it is at least plausible to have 6 cities and the techs necessary to bring your economy out of the hole by turn 25, so at the very least, this assuages my doubt the hole you'll dig yourself into is impossible to get out of.

This is, of course, using perfect and ideal starting situations, so I'm sure a "normal" map will yield far different results ... hopefully others will join me in testing this exercise in REX'ing on a few random maps.

 

[cv431410]

Thank you for the simulation run. Here is the difference:

>>
Turn 16: City #2 builds Worker #1: starts Settler (8); The Wheel researched: start Pottery (7); Worker #1 moves to forest by future City #3
<<

It takes you 6 turns to build a worker, the original assumption is:

Marble hill city center plus grassland deer gives 3F4P .
Expansive boosts it to 3F5P.
You get the first worker in 40/8 = 5 turns.

It is 40P for a worker, correct?

Looks like you still manage to get all 6 cities up by Turn 25.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Marble hill city center plus grassland deer gives 3F4P .
Expansive boosts it to 3F5P.
You get the first worker in 40/8 = 5 turns.

It is 40P for a worker, correct?

Grassland Forest Deer is where I went wrong ... I was just using Grassland Deer (30).

After making the change, I discovered it's actually possible to accomplish all of this by turn 24 ... make note of turn 16 (actually turn 15 now with the Grassland Forest Deer) where the Worker goes to City #3 to chop.

City #2 & City #3 have to be 2 tiles from each other so Worker #1 built in City #2 can make it to a Forest 1 tile from City #3 to start pre-chopping 1 turn prior to City #3's founding.

This results in the following:

• Turn 23: Cities #2 & #3 build Settlers #5 & #6
• Turn 24: Cities #4, #5 & #6 founded on flatland

 

[OTAKUjbski]

For giggles, I ran this same exercise at Epic Speed / Monarch and came up with these results:

• Turn 00: City #1 founded: starts Settler (17) ... research Bronze Working (23)
• Turn 17: City #1 finishes Settler #2: starts Settler (17)
• Turn 19: City #2 founded: starts Worker (12)
• Turn 23: Bronze Working learned: research The Wheel (13)
• Turn 31: City #2 finishes Worker #1: starts Settler (16) (4 overflow) ... worker moves outside future City #3 site to pre-chop
• Turn 34: City #1 finishes Settler #3: starts Settler (16) (4 overflow)
• Turn 36: City #3 founded: starts Settler (12) (+30 from chopping) ... The Wheel learned: research Pottery (20) @ 70% ... move worker to capital to chop
• Turn 42: City #1 receives +30 hammers from chopping: Settler (3) ... worker begins roads
• Turn 45: City #1 finishes Settler #4: starts Worker (12)
• Turn 47: City #2 finishes Settler #5: starts Worker (12)
• Turn 48: City #3 finishes Settler #6: starts Worker (11) (4 overflow)
• Turn 49: Cities #4, #5 and #6 settled ... Pottery (59) @ 0% or Pottery (5) @ 70% (-11 GPT)

So on Epic, the 6 cities are up earlier than on Quick (2775 BC on Epic vs. 2560 BC on Quick). However, Pottery doesn't finish until 5 turns later, so you'll need to pop at least 55 gold worth of huts to make this plausible given these perfect conditions.

 

[cv431410]

Thank you very much for the verification.

24 turns, 6 cities, 1 worker is really good. Can someone top it?


I think I might have come up with something better in long run: 25 turns, 6 cities, 2 workers, can you verify it?

Considering Chopping is available at turn 10 in your simulation, we have to take advantage of chopping after turn 10.

Now city-1's task has changed:

City-1: produces sttler-2, worker-1, settler-3, settler-4

City-1 produces settler, worker, settler, and settler:

Turn 8: settler-2 done, overflow = 8*9 - 65 = 7
Turn 10: city-2 up by turn 8 + 2 = 10
Turn 13: worker 1 done. Overflow = 5 * 8 + 7 - 40 = 7
Turn 17: work 1 chopping done, generating 13 + 6 = 19P
Turn 18: settler-3 done overflow = 45 (5 * 9) + 19 + 7 - 65 = 6
Turn 20: city-3 up by turn 18 + 2 = 20
Turn 21: worker-1 chopping done, generating 13 + 6 = 19P, go to city-3
Turn 23: settler-4 done overflow = 45 (5 * 9) + 19 + 6 - 65 = 5
Turn 25: city-4 up by turn 23 + 2 = 25 (marble hill for further study till Turn 32)

Comments
Settler-2 production is the same as old strategy.
Settler-4 production is the same as old strategy.
City-3 is up 3 turns late, but has 2 workers + pre-chopping to catch up.

City-2 produces a worker and a settler:
Founded at turn 10.
Worker first:
Marble hill city center plus grassland deer gives 3F 4P.
Expansive boosts it to 3F 5P.
You get the first worker in 40/8 = 5 turns.

Start working on settler at turn 15
City 5 is up by turn 15 + 8 + 2 = 25.

Summarize:
Worker: produced by turn 15
City 5: up by turn 15 + 8 + 2 = 25

City 3 produces settler 6.
Turn 16: worker-2 in position for pre-chopping for worker-1
Turn 18: worker-2 pre-chopping done
Turn 20: city-3 up
Turn 22: receiving worker-1
Turn 22: Worker-2 completes chopping 19P
Turn 23: Worker-1 finishes pre-chopped forest in 1 turn, 19P
Turn 24: settler-6 done, overflow 36 (4*9) + 19 + 19 - 65 = 9
Turn 25: city-6 up.

25 turns, 6 cities, 2 workers.
Net gain: 1 worker.

 

[cv431410]

6 cities, 1 worker, 24 turns.

Attached image is turn 25 for 6 plane-marble-hill cities.

 

[cv431410]

If the land is good, I will be recovered in 15 turns:

Turn 25: research 0%
Turn 40: research 50%.

That's completely recovered.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Given the attached 4000 BC save, what is the fastest you can get to 4 cities and 6 cities?

So far, the fastest I can get to my 4th Settler is Turn 64, which was done by building one Worker to farm the Wheat outside City #1 & 2 then switched to chopping between both cities.

EDIT: My City #2 is Settled NW of the Wheat in the West. I guess you can put your cities wherever you want, but my goal was to build well-placed cities as if this was a real game. Once I figure out the fastest ways to get to 4 and/or 6 Settlers, I'll play through using that opening strategy to see just what happens in the long run.

The fastest I can get to Settler #6 is Turn 82, which was done by growing City #1 to size two before being set to Settler-building.

This form of REXing may actually have potential -- especially given a mid-game UU leader like Zara.

 

[cv431410]

Yet another early strategy:

2 workers, 6 cities, 25 turns:

City-1 produces worker, settler, settler, and settler:

Turn 5: worker-1 done
Turn 5: start settler-2, 6 turns
Turn 9: chopping-1 done ==> 13 + 6 = 19 P.

Turn 11: settler-2 done, overflow = 54 (6*9) + 19 - 65 = 8
Turn 11: start settler-3 (5 turns)
Turn 13: city-2 up by turn 11 + 2 = 10
Turn 13: chopping-2 done ==> 13 + 6 = 19 P.
Turn 14; worker-1 in forest of city 2

Turn 16: settler-3 done, overflow = 8 + 45 (4*9) + 19 - 65 = 7
Turn 16: start settler-4 (7 turns)

Turn 18: city-3 done up

Turn 23: settler-4 done overflow = 7 + 63 (5 * 9) - 65 = 5
Turn 24: city-4 up




City-2 produces worker-2, settler-5:

Turn 13: city 2 up, worker-2 (3) turns
Turn 14: worker-1 in forest of city 2, start chopping (3 turns)
Turn 17: worker-1 chopping completed + 19P
Turn 17: worker-2 completed: overflow = 24 (3 * 8) + 19 - 40 = 3
Turn 17: start settler-5 (5 turns)
Turn 18: worker-1 in forest of city 3, start chopping (3)
Turn 21: worker-2 chopping done ==> 19P
Turn 22: settler-5 done, overflow = 3 + 45 (5*9) + 19 - 65 = 2
Turn 23: city-5 up


City-3 produces settler-6:

Turn 18: city 8 up, settler-6 (6 turns)
Turn 18: worker-1 in forest of city 3, start chopping (3 turns)
Turn 21: worker-1 chopping completed + 19P
Turn 24: settler-6 done, overflow = 54 (6*9) + 19 - 65 = 8
Turn 25: city-6 up

 

[cv431410]

It seems that the minimum number of turns for 6 cities is 24.

When you start with workers, you accelerate the productions later, but delayed founding of city 2 and city 3, which in turn reduced overall productivity.

When you start with settlers, everything moves slowly but you do have the benefits of early cities.

Best results:

24 turns: 6 cities + 1 worker (settler-first)
25 turns: 6 cities + 2 workers (worker-first)

By turn 25, worker-first is slightly better. But settler-first strategy holds the record of 24 turns for 6 cities.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

It seems that the minimum number of turns for 6 cities is 24.

Again, now that we have this number, I think it's time to set our eyes on more plausible solutions -- such as not starting on a Plains Marble Hill with Grassland Deer in the Great Plains.

I've been doing some calculations at Epic, but I'm not through with any conclusive results, so I'll withhold what I know so far.

One thing I do think is certain and worth sharing: Chopping Forests and Improving tiles holds a lot more value as the game speed slows down -- which I showed earlier by pushing out my 6 cities at Epic at an earlier date ... you may wish to do further tests at Epic or Marathon.

 

[Fjordson]

0 turns: use worldbuilder lol

 

[cv431410]

Again, now that we have this number, I think it's time to set our eyes on more plausible solutions -- such as not starting on a Plains Marble Hill with Grassland Deer in the Great Plains.

OK. Let us modify the assumptions and post the question again to everyone:

What is the minimum number of turns for 6 cities?

The question is obviously depending on your starting map, but let us assume you have an "optimal" start:

(0) You cannot use Plain Marble Hill; you cannot use Grassland Forest Deer. You can have deer; but not on Grassland Forest. You can have marble, but not on Plain Hill.

(1) You can have anything else you want; if you want to chop, there are enough forest tiles; if you want production, there are cows (2), mines (2), irons (1), copper(1), marble (1), stone (1); if you want to use slavery; there are two corns; ...

(2) Cities do not need warrior;

(3) Any size of cities is acceptable;

(4) Cities can have minimum distance;

0x000x0
0000000
0000000
x00x00x
0000000
0000000
0x000*0

(5) You obviously need workers; you can make as many workers as you want.

(6) Select any civs you wish (some civs give you + 25% for workers, some civs give you +50% for settlers);

(7) No advanced start.

(8) You start with 0 workers; you do have to build workers if you need them;

(9) Ancient era, starting with 1 settler and 1 other unit.

(10) Fast speed.

(11) Second city can produce settler also.


Can you list your answer and post strategy please?

Based on the discussion earlier, we know 1F4P start is important, which requires you to settle on plain hill and work on grassland hill forest(1F2P) or plane forest (1F2P), i.e 2F2P city + 1F2P.



Plane hill city (or parking on elephant) (2P) plus grassland hill forest (1F2P) ==> 1 4.
Expansive boosts it to 1 5.
You get the first worker in 40/6 = 7 turns.

Plane hill city (or parking on elephant) (2P) plus grassland hill forest (1F2P) ==> 1 4.
Imp boosts it to 1 6.
You get the first settler in 65/7 = 10 turns.

So you have 2-turn delay in both cases. This delay obviously significantly increases the power of workers so worker-first will likely to win.

Beside 3F4P-start, you actually can get 2F4P-start; but people will complain again it is not realistic enough.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

It seems we might be the only two still 'into this', so don't expect the responses to come in droves. At any rate, there are a few differences in my starting options:

What is the minimum number of turns for 6 cities?

I'm focusing on one city and how quickly that one city can make 1, 2, 3 and 4 Settlers. In our previous exercises, the first city never made more than 4 Settlers, so I'm eager to see whether it's more beneficial to focus on the 1st or the 4th Settler to achieve the overall goal faster.

I also believe this will help (dis)prove the belief it's better to expand the capital 'up' before expanding the empire 'out', which seems to be the most common and popular starting strategy.

(0) You cannot use Plain Marble Hill; you cannot use Grassland Forest Deer. You can have deer; but not on Grassland Forest. You can have marble, but not on Plain Hill.

For now, my starts are all 'standard' 21 starts, since they seem to be the most common starts by far. Next will be '+1' starts on Plains Hills (+1) or Grassland Food (+1).

(6) Select any civs you wish (some civs give you + 25% for workers, some civs give you +50% for settlers).

For now, I'm focusing on non-Imperialistic, non-Expansive leaders, since that is the most common starting situation. I believe this will also lead me later into determining just how big their bonuses are and how best to utilize them.

(8) You start with 0 workers, you do have to build workers if you need them.

In some cases, I am starting my city with 1 Worker to simulate 2nd+ cities starting with a Worker built from the Capital.

(10) Fast speed.

I'm doing my tests at Epic Speed, since it seems to be the most common and most popular play speed. Fast Speed also de-emphasizes chopping and mining, since the 1 turn 'lost' on movement accounts for a larger portion of the action on fast speeds.

 

[RJM]

It seems we might be the only two still 'into this', so don't expect the responses to come in droves.

There are some lurkers who are following the thread with interest, so keep it up.

RJM

 

[Stephanus]

Please keep on searching and reporting, as I don't have much time left to calculate it myself...
Since the birth of my daughter more than a year ago, I only play a few hours a week, so not much time left to finetune my playing abilities.

 

[Elandal]

I'm certainly following the thread even if I haven't replied for a while

 

[qwertz]

I think you can get a settler from a hut on the settler difficulty. So theoretically you can get 6 cities in 4000 BC.