What is the most number of rival Civs...
- Thread starter BLtheKid
- Start date
I've done 18, but without huts and events. Not that I couldn't have done it with huts and events. Filling the map with lots of civs doesn't make the game harder, it makes it easier. With 18 civs you know there is a target nearby to rush early and just getting a small advantage is enough.
Large maps with fewer civs are much harder. AIs are much better at expanding peacefully than militarily.
Large maps with fewer civs are much harder. AIs are much better at expanding peacefully than militarily.
I'm playing as Catherine on Immortal (Vanilla) - I've won with 10 Civs (including myself), have lost my first two tries with 11.
Personally, I feel a cultural win with her has the best chance but unlike my games so far, with this many Civs it's going to be a necessity in most games to take some cities from other Civs early on (to respond to the point you made). I feel as though I need four cities at least (with room to add two more later in the game within my already established boundaries). But, with 11 Civs, a lot of the time in may be difficult to get more than two cities before being crowded by the AIs. So, I'll have to know when not to build a third settler and instead focus on starting to rush out axemen (provided I have copper).
Personally, I feel a cultural win with her has the best chance but unlike my games so far, with this many Civs it's going to be a necessity in most games to take some cities from other Civs early on (to respond to the point you made). I feel as though I need four cities at least (with room to add two more later in the game within my already established boundaries). But, with 11 Civs, a lot of the time in may be difficult to get more than two cities before being crowded by the AIs. So, I'll have to know when not to build a third settler and instead focus on starting to rush out axemen (provided I have copper).
I'm up to 16 total Civs now - it took me 3 tries to win at 11, 3 at 12, 1 at 13, 7 at 14, 10 at 15, and 11 at 16. To me, ultimately winning is to do better than average. So, when I move to 17, if it takes me 16 times or less to win, that's an overall win.
Anyway, this has been fun and an interesting change from playing a normal game with 7 or 8 Civs. As the number of Civs increase, the random map parameters for climate and sea level really affect one's chances. Lately, I've preferred to get a high sea level game as that usually keeps other Civs from getting too many cities and slows their space race efforts. The problem with a high sea level is it makes it that much more difficult for me to get three decent cities myself as the other Civs are usually right on top of me from the first turn. Even getting a good second city can't always happen.
A few games back I actually an island all to myself but it had very few resources and hammers so I shut that game down after not that many turns.
A beginning of the game strategy that I utilized last game is my initial settler started at a great place (no surprise there) but I could see that I would be able to settle elsewhere within a few turns and simultaneously block that area off from immediate settlement by any other Civs. Of course, when I started to move Huayna was right there and I was essentially forced to take the risk of putting my capital within 3 squares of his. Then I had a halfway decent spot on the coast with cows and a hidden iron for my second city. And then, 25 more turns for another Settler to go back on the peninsula (other Civs had Sailing so I was a little worried but ended up getting the spot with no problem).
And this "third" city had 3 crabs and 3 fish! And copper! I got the National Epic going a little earlier than usual to start getting my GA out and eventually got to a point where I was getting 96-105 GA points per turn, which led to 10 GA from this city alone. I had one other one in Moscow, my capital.
That's the thing also - with an overall small land area, you won't have that many resources. Last game I had both copper and marble, which are probably the two most important ones to have when trying for a cultural victory (Hermitage, National Epic and 3 or 4 of the 7 Cathedrals).
I only got 1 religion and these 3 cities and won in 1941 - with none of the other Civs anywhere near a space race victory. Fortunately, I had good relations with Huayna and Qui Shi (I converted to their religion immediately) and was eventually got on Friendly terms and a Defensive Pact with them. Also a Defensive Pact with Kublai about 10 turns before I won.
So, this was a game where no one declared war on me. If war is declared, often the game is immediately lost because building up any kind of military will be too costly for you to stay somewhat close in the tech race or keep a high Culture percentage late in the game. Other times, I can withstand one or two assaults, but usually I'll also need to bribe in another Civ to help as well.
About as far as I get militarily is to build Grenadiers - some games it's too costly or takes to long to get that far. In those games, you really have to just pray that war is not declared on you. It's usually wise to give into almost all demands that are made of you as even the very weakest Civ will cost you time and slow your move toward a cultural win, even if you are able to hold him off.
Anyway, this has been fun and an interesting change from playing a normal game with 7 or 8 Civs. As the number of Civs increase, the random map parameters for climate and sea level really affect one's chances. Lately, I've preferred to get a high sea level game as that usually keeps other Civs from getting too many cities and slows their space race efforts. The problem with a high sea level is it makes it that much more difficult for me to get three decent cities myself as the other Civs are usually right on top of me from the first turn. Even getting a good second city can't always happen.
A few games back I actually an island all to myself but it had very few resources and hammers so I shut that game down after not that many turns.
A beginning of the game strategy that I utilized last game is my initial settler started at a great place (no surprise there) but I could see that I would be able to settle elsewhere within a few turns and simultaneously block that area off from immediate settlement by any other Civs. Of course, when I started to move Huayna was right there and I was essentially forced to take the risk of putting my capital within 3 squares of his. Then I had a halfway decent spot on the coast with cows and a hidden iron for my second city. And then, 25 more turns for another Settler to go back on the peninsula (other Civs had Sailing so I was a little worried but ended up getting the spot with no problem).
And this "third" city had 3 crabs and 3 fish! And copper! I got the National Epic going a little earlier than usual to start getting my GA out and eventually got to a point where I was getting 96-105 GA points per turn, which led to 10 GA from this city alone. I had one other one in Moscow, my capital.
That's the thing also - with an overall small land area, you won't have that many resources. Last game I had both copper and marble, which are probably the two most important ones to have when trying for a cultural victory (Hermitage, National Epic and 3 or 4 of the 7 Cathedrals).
I only got 1 religion and these 3 cities and won in 1941 - with none of the other Civs anywhere near a space race victory. Fortunately, I had good relations with Huayna and Qui Shi (I converted to their religion immediately) and was eventually got on Friendly terms and a Defensive Pact with them. Also a Defensive Pact with Kublai about 10 turns before I won.
So, this was a game where no one declared war on me. If war is declared, often the game is immediately lost because building up any kind of military will be too costly for you to stay somewhat close in the tech race or keep a high Culture percentage late in the game. Other times, I can withstand one or two assaults, but usually I'll also need to bribe in another Civ to help as well.
About as far as I get militarily is to build Grenadiers - some games it's too costly or takes to long to get that far. In those games, you really have to just pray that war is not declared on you. It's usually wise to give into almost all demands that are made of you as even the very weakest Civ will cost you time and slow your move toward a cultural win, even if you are able to hold him off.
I've used a mod that maxes the number of civs at 50, with a larger map. Won on Immortal without too much difficulty. As Windsor said, more civs makes it easier, not harder. Once you conquer 4 - 5 civs, you're at a pretty large advantage and can sweep much easier.
Kaitzilla has played a GEM game with 36 civs on Deity: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gem-kaitzilla-vs-the-world.560152/
She stopped playing but plans to eventually resume it, but you can see in her latest posts how far ahead she is from the rest of the world, and all possible threats are at Friendly diplomacy with her so I think a player of her skill level has no problem finishing that game with a win.
Kaitzilla has played a GEM game with 36 civs on Deity: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gem-kaitzilla-vs-the-world.560152/
She stopped playing but plans to eventually resume it, but you can see in her latest posts how far ahead she is from the rest of the world, and all possible threats are at Friendly diplomacy with her so I think a player of her skill level has no problem finishing that game with a win.
civvver
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 5,855
I posted 3 games of giant earth map but all the screenshots are gone (thanks photobucket!) so they aren't that interesting.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/giant-earth-map-2-5-david.445005/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/giant-earth-map-game-poll.443788/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/king-of-the-giant-earth-map.443536/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/giant-earth-map-3-under-the-red-sun.455868/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/giant-earth-map-2-5-david.445005/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/giant-earth-map-game-poll.443788/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/king-of-the-giant-earth-map.443536/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/giant-earth-map-3-under-the-red-sun.455868/
I'm playing Vanilla though (from what I understand Vanilla is harder than BTS at the higher levels). Also, I'm playing Catherine and it's very hard to conquer any other Civs - except for the rare occasion when a Civ next to me is noticeably not producing much military and I ALSO go out of my way to almost exclusively produce say, a whole bunch of Axemen for a rush attempt. If I try to get to Cossacks later in the game, the other AIs usually have 10 Riflemen already defending, so there's really not much I can do anyway.
So, my strategy is to actually keep my empire small so I can stay reasonably close in the tech race and then go for the cultural victory. I think I actually prefer just to have three cities instead of six (although it's tough to win with three on low sea-level maps - Tropical or Temperate also make it easier for the AIs to get to space more quickly.
With each additional Civ added from here on, it will be that much harder at the beginning to get those minimum three cities that I need though - at least with high sea levels.
I think the first quote explains the second one. You won't have as strong of a tech rate on so few cities. Ideally, we'd love to have never ending expansion of cities with an endless amount of land to take, but city maintenance and civic upkeep increase for these, so we're forced to limit ourselves a bit. The upkeep increases exponentially, so it's considered best to hit a "sweet spot" number of cities and tech from there. 3 cities is well below that sweet spot. 6 is the minimum, 8 - 10 is nice. Beyond that is to capture strategic resources or increase overall
in your empire as you near the tech(s) you want to begin preparing for war.I often rush up to 12 - 15 cities by 1 AD, but have been instructed by Deity players to tone it down to around 8 at that time so I don't slow my tech rate too much. I still have a clear win on my Immortal games from the positions I reach at 1 AD, but as I prepare for Deity I need to monitor these things more. Staying on 3 cities though, your tech rate can't be much higher than mine by 1 AD.
I just did a quick runthrough (so not very optimal play) of an immortal map a few of us have touched on. My actual run had 15 cities, +101
per turn by 1 AD (when having ±0
). The 3 city run had +230/t (±0) and a Deity player's 8 cities had +284/t, +205/t (±0) coming from the top 3 cities. My 15 city play may cost a lot and slow my tech, but gave me plenty of land and resources for trading and improving over time. By 1000 AD I was plenty far ahead in tech and had 20 cities to have high, high production of cuirassiers/cavalry and galleons, making for an easy win and a clean sweep of every opponent. The Deity player's start makes sense and dwarfs my tech. They have access to a good number of strategic resources and can expand/conquer in the future. Over time my 15-city empire grows and resolves its economic issues, the Deity player's 8-city empire stays in the sweet spot and techs heavily, while its newer cities grow and the slowly expand/conquer 1 civ at a time, but 3 cities can only grow so much. Once all the cottages are towns, your empire is practically capped, which happens around this 1 AD moment.Simply put: there's no benefit from staying on so few cities.
Well, there are games I do try for six cities so that I can have two cathedrals for each religion - usually that means I'll fit the last one or two cities within the boundaries I already have. I have found those games more difficult to stay close in tech though. Either way, I generally am able to maintain my tech rate at anywhere between 80-100%, depending on the game.
Which leaders are you playing to be able to eventually clean sweep everyone at a high level? I'd like to see you do a quick runthrough with Catherine on Vanilla Immortal - let's say 14 total Civs (twice the normal amount) with Random Climate and Sea Level (no other boxes checked). Fractal Map, Standard Size and Normal Speed also. No restarts, you have to play the map you get.
I'd be curious as to what kind of results you would get.
Which leaders are you playing to be able to eventually clean sweep everyone at a high level? I'd like to see you do a quick runthrough with Catherine on Vanilla Immortal - let's say 14 total Civs (twice the normal amount) with Random Climate and Sea Level (no other boxes checked). Fractal Map, Standard Size and Normal Speed also. No restarts, you have to play the map you get.
I'd be curious as to what kind of results you would get.
First game with 17 Civs - Gandhi attacks me for no reason early in the game when I had 3 cities but only one Warrior and one Archer in total (not even built with Barracks either). Game over. And, he couldn't see into my cities to see what I had either. Gandhi, really?
I use a random leader, usually. Any leader is capable of sweeping. Sure, play to their traits' strengths and starting techs are helpful, and of course you'd like to abuse the UUs and UBs, but any leader can perform these sweeps.
I don't like playing Vanilla over BtS, but since you seem to think it's much harder I gave it a try. Made it up to 720 AD where I'm in a pretty nice spot, should have a straight-forward win available. I don't know why someone would willingly choose to play on a Standard size map with extra civs, that plays to their early expansion advantage. You're meant to scale the map along with civ # for a reason. Playing as Catherine is very nice for this type of game though, the Creative trait is great.
I took cities at the dates below:
#2 : 2640 BC
#3 : 2360 BC
#4 : 1560 BC
#5 : 825 BC
#6 : 400 BC
My tech path: Agrculture - Bronze Working - Animal Husbandry - Wheel - Pottery - Fishing - Writing - Mathematics - Masonry - Sailing - Code of Laws - Civil Service - Mysticism - Meditation (Now tech trading begins, was on my way to tech Monarchy)
After that I stopped noting my path, as it's mainly a dart for techs the AI ignores (for trade bait) and darting for Liberalism.
Started pretty standard, did 1 worker steal and expanded towards opponents quickly so they couldn't steal the land from me.
650 BC 1st GS is born -> Academy
425 BC Notice Montezuma is plotting war, likely for me. Stop wealth building and start prepping Axes and Spears.
225 BC Montezuma DoW me
1 AD: Napoleon techs Alphabet!
- I get 120 and Priesthood + Iron Working + Archery
25 AD: Mansa techs Alphabet!
- I get Alphabet + Metal Casting
- Trading with others gets me: HBR + 80; Monarchy + 320; Calendar + Monotheism
100 AD: Capture Montezuma's Flood Plains city
250 AD: Peace with Montezuma, gain Construction + 80
580 AD: Notice Bismarck plotting war, likely for me.
700 AD: Bismarck DoW me
720 AD: His stack (of 5 units?!) crashed into my longbows + wall in city, easily beat his 1st wave, the Vanilla AI seems incredibly stupid compared to BtS AI.
Vanilla AI may have stronger bonuses so they can tech faster, but when it comes to war they trickle their army in small waves and retreat their units as if dancing around like a 4 year old. It's pathetic, this actually seems easier than BtS even though it's on Immortal and they're supposed to have higher bonuses.
From here I'm ahead of most in tech and should win Liberalism (though I haven't met all AI, one may be closer. Egypt and I traded Education + Philosophy a turn ago, so maybe they'll get it if they tech for it.) Either way, when I go for Cuirassiers or Cossacks, I know for certain at least 3 of the 5 other civs on my continent won't have Rifling to help defend. I'll watch carefully and choose my 1st target based on how technologically backward they are or how close they are to a good military tech (meaning I may want to hit before Mansa gets Rifling, maybe I can wait and make him the 3rd target, or maybe he needs to be the 1st, etc.) There's no doubt that I can take at least half of my continent, maybe the whole thing. There are 4 continents in the game, 2 like mine, containing 3+ civs, 1 has Persia all to itself. I'm scouting the seas for other, uninhabited islands, but all 14 civs have been discovered by maps, just not met yet.
The only difficult part of this game was claiming the land at the start, but the Creative trait is very helpful and I was sure to rush, chop, and whip my settlers for my 2nd and 3rd cities. I could've gotten faster 4th, 5th, and 6th cities, but didn't want the higher maintenance costs so early. I left a Settler at the 4th city spot in case Bismarck tried to expand in that location. I never really felt any pressure beyond the settling phase, I wouldn't rush for any wonders because of how many civs are in this game - makes it very hard to finish a desirable wonder. I was worried when I saw Montezuma (notorious warmonger) is right next to me, but after seeing how Vanilla AI fights, I can't help but laugh. I didn't even plan on attacking a city of his, but after realizing how few units he actually had and how he would crash jaguars (swordsmen) into my axes and leave small stacks of 2-3 all around my units for easy clean ups, it became easy to push for his nearest city.
Also cathedrals suck. They're only good for culture wins. If you're content with staying on 6 cities and staying peaceful, sure, play that style on some games, but in all other games cathedrals are expensive buildings that give a bit of +
and may expand your borders a bit.
As for your game with Ghandi killing you, that's unfortunate. Check the civ screens for when they are plotting war (We have enough on our hands right now) so you can prepare properly. Also that's very few units to have at that point, did you lose other warriors to barbs? If it's a standard map with 17 civs, there should be very little room for barbs to even spawn. And teching archery yourself may be a mistake, especially if you have horses or copper nearby.
I don't like playing Vanilla over BtS, but since you seem to think it's much harder I gave it a try. Made it up to 720 AD where I'm in a pretty nice spot, should have a straight-forward win available. I don't know why someone would willingly choose to play on a Standard size map with extra civs, that plays to their early expansion advantage. You're meant to scale the map along with civ # for a reason. Playing as Catherine is very nice for this type of game though, the Creative trait is great.
I took cities at the dates below:
#2 : 2640 BC
#3 : 2360 BC
#4 : 1560 BC
#5 : 825 BC
#6 : 400 BC
My tech path: Agrculture - Bronze Working - Animal Husbandry - Wheel - Pottery - Fishing - Writing - Mathematics - Masonry - Sailing - Code of Laws - Civil Service - Mysticism - Meditation (Now tech trading begins, was on my way to tech Monarchy)
After that I stopped noting my path, as it's mainly a dart for techs the AI ignores (for trade bait) and darting for Liberalism.
Started pretty standard, did 1 worker steal and expanded towards opponents quickly so they couldn't steal the land from me.
650 BC 1st GS is born -> Academy
425 BC Notice Montezuma is plotting war, likely for me. Stop wealth building and start prepping Axes and Spears.
225 BC Montezuma DoW me
1 AD: Napoleon techs Alphabet!
- I get 120
and Priesthood + Iron Working + Archery25 AD: Mansa techs Alphabet!
- I get Alphabet + Metal Casting
- Trading with others gets me: HBR + 80
; Monarchy + 320; Calendar + Monotheism100 AD: Capture Montezuma's Flood Plains city
250 AD: Peace with Montezuma, gain Construction + 80
580 AD: Notice Bismarck plotting war, likely for me.
700 AD: Bismarck DoW me
720 AD: His stack (of 5 units?!) crashed into my longbows + wall in city, easily beat his 1st wave, the Vanilla AI seems incredibly stupid compared to BtS AI.
Vanilla AI may have stronger bonuses so they can tech faster, but when it comes to war they trickle their army in small waves and retreat their units as if dancing around like a 4 year old. It's pathetic, this actually seems easier than BtS even though it's on Immortal and they're supposed to have higher bonuses.
From here I'm ahead of most in tech and should win Liberalism (though I haven't met all AI, one may be closer. Egypt and I traded Education + Philosophy a turn ago, so maybe they'll get it if they tech for it.) Either way, when I go for Cuirassiers or Cossacks, I know for certain at least 3 of the 5 other civs on my continent won't have Rifling to help defend. I'll watch carefully and choose my 1st target based on how technologically backward they are or how close they are to a good military tech (meaning I may want to hit before Mansa gets Rifling, maybe I can wait and make him the 3rd target, or maybe he needs to be the 1st, etc.) There's no doubt that I can take at least half of my continent, maybe the whole thing. There are 4 continents in the game, 2 like mine, containing 3+ civs, 1 has Persia all to itself. I'm scouting the seas for other, uninhabited islands, but all 14 civs have been discovered by maps, just not met yet.
The only difficult part of this game was claiming the land at the start, but the Creative trait is very helpful and I was sure to rush, chop, and whip my settlers for my 2nd and 3rd cities. I could've gotten faster 4th, 5th, and 6th cities, but didn't want the higher maintenance costs so early. I left a Settler at the 4th city spot in case Bismarck tried to expand in that location. I never really felt any pressure beyond the settling phase, I wouldn't rush for any wonders because of how many civs are in this game - makes it very hard to finish a desirable wonder. I was worried when I saw Montezuma (notorious warmonger) is right next to me, but after seeing how Vanilla AI fights, I can't help but laugh. I didn't even plan on attacking a city of his, but after realizing how few units he actually had and how he would crash jaguars (swordsmen) into my axes and leave small stacks of 2-3 all around my units for easy clean ups, it became easy to push for his nearest city.
Also cathedrals suck. They're only good for culture wins. If you're content with staying on 6 cities and staying peaceful, sure, play that style on some games, but in all other games cathedrals are expensive buildings that give a bit of +
and may expand your borders a bit.As for your game with Ghandi killing you, that's unfortunate. Check the civ screens for when they are plotting war (We have enough on our hands right now) so you can prepare properly. Also that's very few units to have at that point, did you lose other warriors to barbs? If it's a standard map with 17 civs, there should be very little room for barbs to even spawn. And teching archery yourself may be a mistake, especially if you have horses or copper nearby.
Nice write-up, I don't have the patience to write up something so extensive. Trouble is, to get the real feel for it, I'd have to actually be watching you play. Most likely you are a better player than I am - but that's fine!
I've been advised to get BTS but I got Vanilla before BTS came out and liked it well enough that I've been satisfied just to play that. I played it for four or five months back in 2006 or 2007 and was able to win at Emperor but no further - eventually I deleted the game from my computer and actually rebought it at the beginning of this year.
This time around, I started at Chieftan with 8 total Civs (one more than the default). I count it as a win if I can win more than 1/8 of the time. So, anyway, I did this all the way up through Immortal. Then I was 0 for 17 on Deity and then went back and read how ridiculous playing on Deity was so didn't feel too bad about it. Then I went back to Immortal and started adding Civs one by one, starting at 9. Now I'm at 17 and 0 for 4. In game 2, I was attacked three times - the third time doing me in when I was about 25 turns away from a cultural victory. The last two games I've been attacked early by Qui Shi and Alex (twice by him). The Alex game I just finished I had three decent cities with Marble and Copper (good for Hermitage, Heroic Epic and Cathedrals so always consider it a big plus if I can get those resources). In the Gandhi game in particular, I neglected the military, especially because Gandhi couldn't even see in to my cities to see what I had - him attacking made no sense to me since he is supposedly ultra-peaceful.
I usually go Bronze Working - Animal Husbandry to start, to see what's going on with Copper and Horses. Fishing (if Moscow is on the coast with multiple resources), Archery (as I don't get hooked up to Copper right away) and then maybe The Wheel, so that my workers can definitely be doing something at minimum when they eventually get built. I usually go Settler, Settler, Settler (usually no barbs around, as you said) to start as I read that is the most economical over the short-term. If you were talking four cities out, that probably wouldn't be true. Then there may be one or two variable techs before I go Writing and then Alphabet, which I can usually trade. Then, it's generally teching things like Drama, Philosophy and Nationhood so I can trade them around to everyone else. Then usually Printing Press because everyone goes for Education instead. Although, it's not a straight shot, sometimes I will tech other things for a certain amount of turns until the AIs will trade them to me. Eventually, when I get Liberalism, I also make sure to have Printing Press and Chemistry (for the Grenadiers). Sometimes I'll try to get Military Tradition (I didn't have that the game I was attacked with 25 turns to go, which was costly because if I did, I would have had a Defensive Pact with Toku (wouldn't you know it, he was maybe the only other leader in the game that didn't have MT) and that may have disuaded Saladin from attacking me. Anyway, I don't go any farther with tech (can't wait too long to get Culture going at 100% or close to it) usually but it's a risk as the Grenadiers can stop some of the weaker Civs but if someone strong attacks it's pretty much game over. Even worse is sea battle - at best I will have Frigates and others will have Destroyers and such.
Yes, I don't like when Montezuma is around me but I did have one game that I won and he was next to me the whole game (we shared the same religion and he ended up Pleased or Friendly with me). Usually, I'll give in to his and others demands as it's not worth the war risk. Even a relatively weaker Civ can cause me to waste time having to defend myself and such. If I was playing about two levels lower, it would be a different game. Alex I definitely don't like either. Nor Qui Shi, two games ago, he came through another's territory just to attack me for no reason and then raze one of my two cities. What's the point and then not keeping the city for yourself? Another one I don't like is Victoria, who overall doesn't seem to have a warmonger reputation but seems to be Annoyed with me constantly and then sometimes attacking.
Did you play out the rest of the game yet?
I've been advised to get BTS but I got Vanilla before BTS came out and liked it well enough that I've been satisfied just to play that. I played it for four or five months back in 2006 or 2007 and was able to win at Emperor but no further - eventually I deleted the game from my computer and actually rebought it at the beginning of this year.
This time around, I started at Chieftan with 8 total Civs (one more than the default). I count it as a win if I can win more than 1/8 of the time. So, anyway, I did this all the way up through Immortal. Then I was 0 for 17 on Deity and then went back and read how ridiculous playing on Deity was so didn't feel too bad about it. Then I went back to Immortal and started adding Civs one by one, starting at 9. Now I'm at 17 and 0 for 4. In game 2, I was attacked three times - the third time doing me in when I was about 25 turns away from a cultural victory. The last two games I've been attacked early by Qui Shi and Alex (twice by him). The Alex game I just finished I had three decent cities with Marble and Copper (good for Hermitage, Heroic Epic and Cathedrals so always consider it a big plus if I can get those resources). In the Gandhi game in particular, I neglected the military, especially because Gandhi couldn't even see in to my cities to see what I had - him attacking made no sense to me since he is supposedly ultra-peaceful.
I usually go Bronze Working - Animal Husbandry to start, to see what's going on with Copper and Horses. Fishing (if Moscow is on the coast with multiple resources), Archery (as I don't get hooked up to Copper right away) and then maybe The Wheel, so that my workers can definitely be doing something at minimum when they eventually get built. I usually go Settler, Settler, Settler (usually no barbs around, as you said) to start as I read that is the most economical over the short-term. If you were talking four cities out, that probably wouldn't be true. Then there may be one or two variable techs before I go Writing and then Alphabet, which I can usually trade. Then, it's generally teching things like Drama, Philosophy and Nationhood so I can trade them around to everyone else. Then usually Printing Press because everyone goes for Education instead. Although, it's not a straight shot, sometimes I will tech other things for a certain amount of turns until the AIs will trade them to me. Eventually, when I get Liberalism, I also make sure to have Printing Press and Chemistry (for the Grenadiers). Sometimes I'll try to get Military Tradition (I didn't have that the game I was attacked with 25 turns to go, which was costly because if I did, I would have had a Defensive Pact with Toku (wouldn't you know it, he was maybe the only other leader in the game that didn't have MT) and that may have disuaded Saladin from attacking me. Anyway, I don't go any farther with tech (can't wait too long to get Culture going at 100% or close to it) usually but it's a risk as the Grenadiers can stop some of the weaker Civs but if someone strong attacks it's pretty much game over. Even worse is sea battle - at best I will have Frigates and others will have Destroyers and such.
Yes, I don't like when Montezuma is around me but I did have one game that I won and he was next to me the whole game (we shared the same religion and he ended up Pleased or Friendly with me). Usually, I'll give in to his and others demands as it's not worth the war risk. Even a relatively weaker Civ can cause me to waste time having to defend myself and such. If I was playing about two levels lower, it would be a different game. Alex I definitely don't like either. Nor Qui Shi, two games ago, he came through another's territory just to attack me for no reason and then raze one of my two cities. What's the point and then not keeping the city for yourself? Another one I don't like is Victoria, who overall doesn't seem to have a warmonger reputation but seems to be Annoyed with me constantly and then sometimes attacking.
Did you play out the rest of the game yet?
InovA - in the game you're playing, what was your strategy as far as conquering neighboring cities? What's your build strategy in your cities, including improvements unrelated to military? Maybe I'll try do something along those lines. The one thing that I don't like about cultural is that when you move culture to 100% or close to it, at that point you become more and more vulnerable to attack as you race to 50K.
Side story, of all the games I've played with extra Civs, there has been only one game where anyone had some sort of chance to maybe get a domination victory. There were something like 15 Civs in that game and by game's end it was lopped down to only 6. Alex had like 5200 points, double that of anyone else but I was more or less Friendly to him the entire game and he wasn't right next to me either. I had all my cities around 48 or 49K - but unfortunately had a Defensive Pact with Toku and Alex attacked him and then a few turns later was across the ocean attacking me and that was that.
Side story, of all the games I've played with extra Civs, there has been only one game where anyone had some sort of chance to maybe get a domination victory. There were something like 15 Civs in that game and by game's end it was lopped down to only 6. Alex had like 5200 points, double that of anyone else but I was more or less Friendly to him the entire game and he wasn't right next to me either. I had all my cities around 48 or 49K - but unfortunately had a Defensive Pact with Toku and Alex attacked him and then a few turns later was across the ocean attacking me and that was that.
I played another 300 years-worth. Not too much has happened, I gained a lot of tech and gold per turn from trading with other civs that I met on the other continents. I won Liberalism - likely no contest, but that didn't keep me from rushing to it in case Hatsheput wanted it. I also bribed the Romans and French into war with me against the Germans, which helped tick away at their city defenses. I took the two largest cities and the Romans took one for themselves. I realized after using Liberalism on Nationhood that vanilla Military Tradition doesn't unlock cuirassiers - *sigh* you really need to play BtS. Nationhood is still good for the civic though, allowing for macemen/musketmen/riflemen drafting. Now I'm rushing for riflemen and switched to Theocracy so that my mass production of units in all cities will be able to sweep the whole continent. Will need Rifling to deal with Mansa Musa if I can't bribe him into a war with the others, allowing me to backstab him.
Conquering cities went differently this game, because both the Aztec and Germans declared war on me, so I had to react. Luckily I noticed the WHEOOHRN indicating that they're plotting war - in BtS, if you use mods like BUG/BULL it will alert you with a helpful red fist icon so you don't need to check the AI screens so often. After reacting and countering the Aztec stack as best as I could, I noticed I overbuilt units - or more, he underbuilt them for Immortal level. So I had enough leftover to take his city, though I wasn't planning on it. Kind of the same story with the Germans, but I had good enough tech at that point to bribe others into war and help make it an unfair fight. I like to use catapults (and trebuchets - GET BtS) to hit stacks for collateral damage. I'll bombard city defenses if I'm waiting for reinforcements or if it's a large +defense% and they have a large enough stack, otherwise I'll try to crash it down in one turn, leading with the catapults. Most promotions are +city raid, some are shock (+melee) and some are +archery (in early wars).
As long as you're used to the whipping tricks (like how you always want to whip for 2+ pop and control the overflow) and you whip military units in every city (or all but one, if building something important) every few turns, you should have enough to take down a civ in these games without much trouble. Maybe Immortal difficulty isn't easier in this than in BtS, but this game is definitely easier. The lack of space forced 2 civs on my continent to just 2 cities! 1 civ made it to 3, another to 4, and the last up to 8. This means that a war declared by anyone other than Mansa Musa (the 8) is laughable because of my 6-city production to start, now up to 9 cities. I'll easily eat all civs other than Mansa to make it a 17-city vs 8-city war, which should be another stomp. These wars will cost my tech to slow, but the 25 cities I'm left with will easily be able to take the economic/tech lead at this point. I can also go for total war with all other continents (my favorite way to play) and ride this production lead to victory (after a few dozen turns of catching up in tech).
My start is always Worker - Warrior(s) - Settler (@3 pop) then either another Worker if I can use it to chop, else another Settler.
Sometimes I wait until 4 pop to make the 1st or 2nd Settler, if I had a food heavy start and want a 2nd warrior to finish or if I need the escort for the Settler.
I'll make work boats for the obvious reasons.
In a game like this, I'd want to rush out the 3 settlers ASAP and fill in others later. I hope you don't mean you start building a Settler first, that is a poor opening. You want to start improving tiles ASAP, and rushing to 4 cities only hurts your tech (city maintenance costs) and works unimproved tiles. Having only 1 worker the moment my 3rd city starts makes me feel bad enough.
If you don't know about worker stealing, it's incredibly useful for a game like this and makes my last point less necessary. You just use your earlier warrior(s) to declare war on a civ if you can capture a worker on that same turn. Then run the worker back home. You need to get used to it though, don't want to lose a warrior and cause the enemy to feel like they're winning the war, so they'll never agree to a cease fire and will try to kill you soon enough.
My cities all build a Granary ASAP. That's all that's necessary. A Forge and Factory are great for production cities and (in longer games) for every city. A Library is essential for the capital and for tech heavy cities, like GP farms, cottage cities, or a decent city with a few Gold resources, etc. A monument can be built in early cities for the border pop - if you're not a Creative trait leader. Also a monument for bigger cities to give + for Charismatic trait leaders. Coastal cities get a Lighthouse (+
) always, and a Harbor (+
) and Customs House (x2) in longer games (Industrial Era or later).
Other than that, Wonders and failgold wonders, otherwise they all build Wealth (preferred) or Research.
Barracks before you have the war tech you want.
Monastery can be built in your best tech city, but may not be worth it because of how early it gets obsoleted.
Temples are good for + if you're a Spiritual leader (2x build speed)
Otherwise I ignore religion as much as I can, only building Monastery + Missionaries for + bonus throughout empire, and may build religious buildings for +
if good tiles are being taken by neighbors.
Conquering cities went differently this game, because both the Aztec and Germans declared war on me, so I had to react. Luckily I noticed the WHEOOHRN indicating that they're plotting war - in BtS, if you use mods like BUG/BULL it will alert you with a helpful red fist icon so you don't need to check the AI screens so often. After reacting and countering the Aztec stack as best as I could, I noticed I overbuilt units - or more, he underbuilt them for Immortal level. So I had enough leftover to take his city, though I wasn't planning on it. Kind of the same story with the Germans, but I had good enough tech at that point to bribe others into war and help make it an unfair fight. I like to use catapults (and trebuchets - GET BtS) to hit stacks for collateral damage. I'll bombard city defenses if I'm waiting for reinforcements or if it's a large +defense% and they have a large enough stack, otherwise I'll try to crash it down in one turn, leading with the catapults. Most promotions are +city raid, some are shock (+melee) and some are +archery (in early wars).
As long as you're used to the whipping tricks (like how you always want to whip for 2+ pop and control the overflow) and you whip military units in every city (or all but one, if building something important) every few turns, you should have enough to take down a civ in these games without much trouble. Maybe Immortal difficulty isn't easier in this than in BtS, but this game is definitely easier. The lack of space forced 2 civs on my continent to just 2 cities! 1 civ made it to 3, another to 4, and the last up to 8. This means that a war declared by anyone other than Mansa Musa (the 8) is laughable because of my 6-city production to start, now up to 9 cities. I'll easily eat all civs other than Mansa to make it a 17-city vs 8-city war, which should be another stomp. These wars will cost my tech to slow, but the 25 cities I'm left with will easily be able to take the economic/tech lead at this point. I can also go for total war with all other continents (my favorite way to play) and ride this production lead to victory (after a few dozen turns of catching up in tech).
My start is always Worker - Warrior(s) - Settler (@3 pop) then either another Worker if I can use it to chop, else another Settler.
Sometimes I wait until 4 pop to make the 1st or 2nd Settler, if I had a food heavy start and want a 2nd warrior to finish or if I need the escort for the Settler.
I'll make work boats for the obvious reasons.
In a game like this, I'd want to rush out the 3 settlers ASAP and fill in others later. I hope you don't mean you start building a Settler first, that is a poor opening. You want to start improving tiles ASAP, and rushing to 4 cities only hurts your tech (city maintenance costs) and works unimproved tiles. Having only 1 worker the moment my 3rd city starts makes me feel bad enough.
If you don't know about worker stealing, it's incredibly useful for a game like this and makes my last point less necessary. You just use your earlier warrior(s) to declare war on a civ if you can capture a worker on that same turn. Then run the worker back home. You need to get used to it though, don't want to lose a warrior and cause the enemy to feel like they're winning the war, so they'll never agree to a cease fire and will try to kill you soon enough.
My cities all build a Granary ASAP. That's all that's necessary. A Forge and Factory are great for production cities and (in longer games) for every city. A Library is essential for the capital and for tech heavy cities, like GP farms, cottage cities, or a decent city with a few Gold resources, etc. A monument can be built in early cities for the border pop - if you're not a Creative trait leader. Also a monument for bigger cities to give +
for Charismatic trait leaders. Coastal cities get a Lighthouse (+) always, and a Harbor (+) and Customs House (x2) in longer games (Industrial Era or later).Other than that, Wonders and failgold wonders, otherwise they all build Wealth (preferred) or Research.
Barracks before you have the war tech you want.
Monastery can be built in your best tech city, but may not be worth it because of how early it gets obsoleted.
Temples are good for +
if you're a Spiritual leader (2x build speed)Otherwise I ignore religion as much as I can, only building Monastery + Missionaries for +
bonus throughout empire, and may build religious buildings for + if good tiles are being taken by neighbors.Infuriated by the game I just had. Had low sea level, which means AI has a better chance of getting space race more quickly. Anyway, I managed to avoid war the entire game and was rolling toward victory. I had four cities and two religions. Most Civs were working on the first two elements of the space race (the one that you have build 5 of - can't think of the name right now - and the 3 Thrusters). I don't start getting a little worried until someone starts working on the last 5 individual pieces - and more so when someone gets 2 of the 5 built. So, Huayna, has 2 and then gets the third one built - but I'm only 10-15 turns away from winning at the most so I should still be OK.
I'm also worried because the UN has been built and it's only a matter of time before someone takes Caste System away - as I'm trying to crank out 1 or hopefully 2 last GA to put me over the top a few turns earlier as I see it's going to be close. So, I've already started putting extra GA on top of the usual to get the points to get to 2000 and 2200 - sacrificing population to get 168 GA points out of Moscow instead of 78, for example.
So, I'm maybe 6 turns away when Huayna builds Stasis Chamber, so now I'm in danger of losing at any moment. Just have to get through a few more turns and I win. But, he builds Life Support just 2 or 3 turns after that. Ridiculous. Never had a game like that, where someone builds three pieces right in a row, practically one turn after the next.
I'm also worried because the UN has been built and it's only a matter of time before someone takes Caste System away - as I'm trying to crank out 1 or hopefully 2 last GA to put me over the top a few turns earlier as I see it's going to be close. So, I've already started putting extra GA on top of the usual to get the points to get to 2000 and 2200 - sacrificing population to get 168 GA points out of Moscow instead of 78, for example.
So, I'm maybe 6 turns away when Huayna builds Stasis Chamber, so now I'm in danger of losing at any moment. Just have to get through a few more turns and I win. But, he builds Life Support just 2 or 3 turns after that. Ridiculous. Never had a game like that, where someone builds three pieces right in a row, practically one turn after the next.
Lennier
Emperor
Hard to win with only four cities.
I've had cultural wins a few times with only three cities and one religion! Usually, I don't even try to get a fourth city but in this case I did it to get Iron because I didn't even have Copper. That last game made me mad so I'm thinking of experimenting and trying to be militarily aggressive from the beginning and seeing what happens.
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