What is the most underwelming Civ?

[Blackmantle]

Not to mention the summoning for having an "ally" part.

 

[OzzyKP]

I agree that Bannor, Doviello, and Makkim are the ones who need a boost the most. I like the idea of having Malkkim being a trade-based civ (many good ideas in their thread).

As for the Bannor: I do like them, very much. I just think that Crusade is prohibitively expensive and thus, unusable until the point where victory is pretty much assured anyway. Also, as the Bannor stand now, they're kind of a "one and done" civ - IMHO, they lack that special "something" that makes them replayable. You try them once, you play it out, and then you move on to a more interesting and engaging civ. What makes this worse is that their lore is so cool; you read it and you think "Awesome!", then you play them and they're.... flat, blah, eh, whatever. They're not WICKED COOL like most of the other civs.

Basically, all I think is required is a little rework of Crusade to make it more accessable, and a UU or two that give some flavor. I mean, the freaking Sidar got a cool new unit to play with in .34 for no reason, and they were plenty fun to play with to start! Why can't the Bannor get a little of that love?

I agree with this entirely. I love the concept and I want to like Bannor and play them often. BUT their benefits just aren't that interesting or useful compared to the others.

I disagree with Kael's point that you should judge the effectiveness of civs by seeing who does well when the AI autoplays. Mostly because the AI doesn't understand a lot of the advanced features. So if a civ's strength is a cool spell or summon and the AI doesn't know how to use it, then that civ is comparatively handicapped to the lame civ that plays like a Vanilla non-FfH civ.

Some thoughts on Bannor (and it may be worthwhile to start a thread devoted to brainstorming boosting them). Since their style is crusaders against evil, how about giving them combat bonuses against evil civs/units? Or perhaps (and this may sound counter-intuitive) giving Bannor units the Stigmata promotion. The more the world slips into darkness the harder the Bannor fight it.

Maybe some builder-type bonuses too. To emphasize their desire for order have some functions that reduce unhappiness, reduce revolts, or other similar mechanics. Maybe tie it into the Order religion or maybe just make it Bannor specific.

 

[Mailbox]

Or perhaps (and this may sound counter-intuitive) giving Bannor units the Stigmata promotion. The more the world slips into darkness the harder the Bannor fight it.

I like this. Stigmata is commonly associated with saints instead of evil and giving the Bannor ( or the Order, I prefer that the Bannor get it) a building that gives Stigmata later on (Fanaticism? although it's a loaded tech for the Bannor already) would be very interesting. The Bannor definitely wouldn't give up, even if the world went to hell.

 

[xilr]

I hadnt even read what Kael wrote yet, and I was thinking the exact same thing. I havent played all civs and there are a handful that I really have no interest in playing since their style just doesnt appeal to me. So I guess Im not really qualified to pick "the weakest"

 

[MagisterCultuum]

What made the mercurians suck balls before Ice was the fact that their team could barely tech at all, meaning you'd never see anything past the basic angels. With that problem fixed, the Mercurians are a lot more viable to switch to.

0.34 is still Shadow. Ice doesn't officially begin until the scenarios are added.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I dislike giving them stigmata, it makes no sense that the guys fighting against armageddon are actually causing it

but nice ideas about some buildings and abilities to increase social order in their cities ( happiness , revolts etc. ) maybe the bannor could be immune to revolts and cultural flipping?

 

[woodelf]

but nice ideas about some buildings and abilities to increase social order in their cities ( happiness , revolts etc. ) maybe the bannor could be immune to revolts and cultural flipping?

Can you make it so that when they take a city there is no unrest? That would be a different mechanic.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

I dislike giving them stigmata, it makes no sense that the guys fighting against armageddon are actually causing it

Stigmata doesn't increase the AC. It gives a combat bonus equal to half the AC to the unit.

 

[OzzyKP]

Can you make it so that when they take a city there is no unrest? That would be a different mechanic.

That'd be a great idea. Rhye's mod does this for... Babylon I think. It'd be a nice mix/synergy between Bannor's desire for conquest and their desire for order. I don't think that by itself it'd suddenly make them a fun civ to play, but it would absolutely be a step in the right direction.

And yea, stigmata should just give the combat bonus. Maybe it used to increase the counter, but I don't remember. I think a combat bonus like that would be very incharacter and would enhance Bannor greatly. Plus with the no revolt after conquest thing, we might be on to something.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

ah, I got confused with mark of the prophecy, thanx for pointing that out.

stigmata does look good then. and the idea about no revolting on city capture is great as well, that's actually what I was referring to by saying "no revolts"

 

[BlankVerse]

I want to try out the Mercurians now that I don't have to plot the demise of my summoner to rid me research penalty.

Yeah, the Bannor do feel like they lack a bit even if I really like the civ. Most of the flavour I have when playing them is from the Order, not the civ.

 

[Schmoe]

I second zbelg. Doviello rock. I love it when you have to conquer cities just to pay the bills

I've only played Doviello twice. My first game (and first ever FFH game!) I was running 80-90% taxes and pillaging everything I could just to stay above water. I conquered the world in about 250 turns

It's funny, actually, because I remember after that game trying to find the War Engine in the tech tree, and when I found it my thought was "How would you ever get that thing without winning first?"

So I guess that's a long-winded way to say that I think the Doviello do all right.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

totally agreed that the War Machine should be toned down a bit and made available at a cheaper tech. machinery is incredibly hard to get as the doviello, and it needs bowyers as well...

 

[Skitters]

Regarding Stigmata, surely that'd imply it would be in the Bannor/Orders interest to increase the AC themselves - which doesn't seem very thematic to me.

 

[BlankVerse]

It would take away from the Shieim uniqueness

 

[OzzyKP]

There is quite a lot of Sheim uniqueness already. They have a lot going for them.

As for giving the Bannor an incentive to increase the counter... hmm, good question.

 

[Hanny]

Would not a list or AIs defeated by other AIs be of use?, so if people posted the detail of the game they last played, along with the Ai ranked by defeat, any basic trend would be easier to see.

 

[WCH]

There is quite a lot of Sheim uniqueness already. They have a lot going for them.

As for giving the Bannor an incentive to increase the counter... hmm, good question.

I think it's fine. Dark fantasy and all that... in the same way that it's okay that Basium benefits from the destruction of the world.

 

[Blackmantle]

Only that Basium is striving more or less actively for it as well (because he wants to kill those demons. If the world has to go into final battle of good vs. evil thats just to his tastes. Hence him increasing AC if he enters Erebus.).
The Mercurians also are one of the 2 civs which massively profit from Armageddon to represent that.

+ if you read the entry about the Stigmata (of the Unborn building i belive might be elsewere if im mistaken), what is meant with it (stigmata promotion) here doesn't sound all so much related to "good.
FFH tends to differ from those kind of standard-fantasy bias/patterns about things.


I for one whould dislike that part since it really whould reward the bannor to actively let the AC skyroket (they have nothing to fear from hell-terrain anyways unless lead by nongood Decius or changeing to a radically non-good religion.) which whould be somewhat against their flavor
(unless they go AV like in one of the lore-backgrounds mentioned by Kael. But then they have that option anyways if they can build the Shrine. So that one is allready covered, sorts of.).

 

[OzzyKP]

I don't see how wiping out evil at all costs is necessarily out of character for Bannor.