What is the point or advantage of building Samhain?

iceboy103

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
57
As the Ilians why build this ever? You are most likely in the tundra terrain where these units spawn and most likely to be attacked! What is the advantage in this?

Seems to me the only way to make this wonder important or useful to build for the Illians is for the Ilians to be immune from being attacked by the frostlings because they are the ones that let them loose but everyone else can be attacked...

Does anyone else agree?
 
I don't play the Illians often, but when I do, I never build it.

It's not worth the early hammers, and if you wait too long to build it, the units will just bounce off the AI anyway. Furthermore, as you mention, this doesn't even account for the fact that your hard work might just attack you anyway.
 
I don't see much of a point the way it is in ummodded FfH.

In my version, Mokka starts with Mokka's Cauldron (the wonder is a piece of equipment and can be moved from city to city in my version), and the Illians have an extra Ice I spell that works like Domination but only on units of the Frostling race.



One other way to make it useful would be to make it a prereq for other Illian rituals, as I think the original Ice changelog claimed it was.
 
I seem to remember that it was a prereq for other rituals, but it isn't now, and maybe it never was. But even if was made so, it's still kinda worthless - even without the fact that frostlings aren't very dangerous and are just kinda free xp, the possibility that they can attack the Illian player himself makes it very bad.
 
On the highest 2 levels there is no point.

Below that, it's possible to time it to coincide with normal barb spawns + stasis, which is really damn backbreaking for every non-barbarian AI on the map, and could really mess up a human player in MP as well if he decided "I'll just put off fortifying my cities for a bit." (To do that immortal or deity you'd have to be building samhain from pretty much turn 1, which is obviously a Bad Idea.)
 
I don't see much of a point the way it is in ummodded FfH.

In my version, Mokka starts with Mokka's Cauldron (the wonder is a piece of equipment and can be moved from city to city in my version), and the Illians have an extra Ice I spell that works like Domination but only on units of the Frostling race.



One other way to make it useful would be to make it a prereq for other Illian rituals, as I think the original Ice changelog claimed it was.

please can I have your modmod? please
 
If somone wins with the Illians without building Samhain that doesn't mean that Samhain must be pointless. Monkeyfinger already described one strategy for using Samhain. It's like Workshops or Archers or Blasting Powder or Guybrush Threepwood...use it if you find it useful, don't use it if you don't. FfH2 has lots of options, which means that every thing in the Mod won't find a use in every game by every player.
 
did you just disrespect guybush threepwood? He's awesome! He gets to go out and have a little fun and then i get to build shrine of the champion. What's not to like? :)

ninja pirates!!!! Epic win!
 
If somone wins with the Illians without building Samhain that doesn't mean that Samhain must be pointless. Monkeyfinger already described one strategy for using Samhain. It's like Workshops or Archers or Blasting Powder or Guybrush Threepwood...use it if you find it useful, don't use it if you don't. FfH2 has lots of options, which means that every thing in the Mod won't find a use in every game by every player.

I understand. :) But will please someone tell me how they DID find in useful?
 
I don't see it very useful. By the time I'd consider it to be a safe build and have spare time to build it, it is pointless. Now if they were spawned with an unique ai that never attacked against Illians, even undefended workers/cities...

I guess early on frostlings could be reasonably nasty against noble level AI. Too much of a chance of backfire though.
 
Again, I don't play as the Illians much, but it seems to me to be just as useless (or worse) with Stasis. I imagine myself accidentally eliminating someone across the world from me, only to let another civ expand unchecked. I suppose if you are preparing an invasion of a neighbor while building the ritual, then cast statis, and then attack....

But then:
1. You used hammers on Samhain and not on troops and
2. Those frostlings might not even help you anyway. Why not use the hammers on PoN instead? Or on more warriors/freaks/axemen/whatever.
 
Yea ... I can think of two ways to make Samhain more useful, above which is making the base frostling have a higherspawn chance ... as it is, it seems most of the spawns are Frostling wolf riders, which are just painful ><, although frostling archers are okay.

Back to the point, eheh ... I think the Illians (or maybe winterborn promotion) should be like 100% command of Frostlings. AKA, if an Illian unit defeats a Frostling unit, they GAIN THAT UNIT. another way is a Ice I + Winterborn promo thats domination for frostling units, only without the chance to lose Ice I of course. making Frostlings a possible early army for the illians.

Increase the chance the base, warrior class of frostlings spawn on Ice and Tundra afterthis, (hopefully not the mounted version tho) will give Samhain as an indirect way of amassing an early army.
 
It is more xp for the enemy imo. I prefer to kill units of enemy civs for xp. Gets me generals in Orbis.
 
It can be quite annoying and destructive to enemies, if you are playing end of winter like I usually do.
 
if you are playing end of winter like I usually do.

ah yes, it can be quite fun to play Illians on End of Winter ... however thats kind of like playing high sea level as the Lanun, and commenting on some ocean mechanic.

Frankly, on Archipelago maps, you will hardly ever have an army because of the low hammers, but so will everyone else, and you will have a massive economy, so your Tsunami wielding Eidolons, and RoF wielding Eidolons will be meeting their champions most likely. Of course, to do this you need to spend some time in AV ... and depending on how much land in the map it may be better to just build cultists, then go pure AV, and upgrade those cultists to tsunami eidolons, and bring along Mardero and some Beasts of Agares. And hopefully you will have enough left over cultists to destroy those attacking your other settlements. And if not .. ther are always ritualists, and you will probably soon have either longbows or Arquebus depending on how deep you went into which techpaths ... and city garrison archer + ritualist or cultist makes for a tough to take city while your main force is off in a huge stack of boats, crushing everyone else. Of course, if you went with the cultist -> eidolon path, most likely you can just waterwalk those Eidolons over to your enemy, with the ships as back up, and the ships can either bring Mardero along or he can sit as Defense, and if you managed to Build Rosier, he can defend your biggest or most important Island.

as for the Samhain, combining Stasis with an early Samhain can prove annoying, but ultimately in mp games it will be uneffective. If someone has Rexed and dies from it, then laugh, but for the most part I consider Samhain as a noobtrap, and I consider late game Stasis to be the most effective. Unfortunately that means they will have been able to build their army, but the idea is that you try to kill their army that turn, or what not, and they cannot build troops as you march upon them. Another good tactic is to wait until they are away from their lands.
 
Samhain is a stall tactic. It punished players that expand to early and puts pressure on everyone in the game. Players that focus on the military can get some decent xp out of it, other players can face a considerable stall (especially against those wolf riders).

Stalling is what the Illians do. They dont have major attacks (until very late in), and they dont have the real offensive weapons of the other civs. What they have is the ability to delay the game, to try to keep everyone else distracted long enough to reach to those late game weapons.

But its a gamble. Samhain intentionally doesnt give the Illians free units, they are supposed to be a military powerhouse at that stage in the game. It does help them against the civs that expand faster than they do, and it makes human players think twice before leaving unguarded cities and workers running around.

It may or may not be effective, it is definitly a double edged sword. But that is the thinking behind it.
 
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