[GS] What openers will you use for the new GS civs?

[Ornen]

There are some really neat civs in the new batch, and I wanted to talk about how to open with them -- especially the ones with big changes to the early game. I'm going to focus on Mali and Phoenicia in this point, but I'm open to talking about any of them.

Mali seems tricky to me because there are two districts you'll be interested in building early on, holy sites and commercial districts (suguba), but reduced production makes it that much trickier to work them into a build. Maybe still gun for an early settler, but hunker down on holy site + commercial district after that, so you can at least buy at reduced cost in one city? Or maybe just plan to buy the settler asap with mine gold + trade gold -- or does that set back your early game too much? Maybe it would be best to go easy on religion, not worry so much about founding one, and focus on a strong early game. A lot of options, but reduced production makes it tricky to pursue them.

Phoenicia is a little more straightforward, but still one I'm wondering about. I'm thinking get a second coastal city early (while keeping up with military plus one builder for agoge), fill in cothons and start rapidly colonizing from there.

What do you think about these two and others?

 

[ExemplarVoss]

Phoenicia puzzles me, to be honest. They seem to be without any (useful) benefits at all until they're fairly well along in both research trees. If you're expecting a late start, I guess that's fine, you can always build a brute squad to go conquer the closest neighbor while you're waiting for everything else to come online. But even when they have their abilities, I'm not sure the capital movement matters (or is cost efffective) and the rest of their stuff is ho-hum

Mali seems to be benefit from at least 1-2 early settlers, and may well be able to afford them. They seem the most interesting variant yet to the standard formula.

Inca are about the only other civ I'm really interested in this expansion. Maybe mauri and Ottomans, but not strongly.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Most likely will play the new Civs the same as the old ones.

Make Friends
Build Army
Denounce Friends
Watch the World Burn.

 

[Onin]

Phoenicia seems very interesting to me too. I want to try early coastal conquest, maybe a combo of conquest and settling. Taking cities with her UU should be kinda easy and you want 2 relatively early anyway for tech boosts. I still think a second city early will likely make sense but where you settle it may be a much different choice than with other civs. I look forward to experimenting.

Inca seems really interesting to me because they have a much different view of the map IMO and they really want Magnus(chopping), Liang(build charges), and Pingala(tall is good) as governors. They settle near mountains which should mean great spots for districts but they want to reserve hills for terrace farms which means they will prefer flat land for districts. Other tile improvements are also not necessarily going to be as good as the terrace farm so they are more likely to harvest early and often. Plus they will want to place an aqueduct in locations that help those bonuses.

Mali is so strange because production needs to be focused on districts. Plus they can grow tall early (with a decent start) so that will help in ways that are hard to really understand until playing. They could start building a settler much earlier than other civs because of their food bonus but may not finish it any earlier.

 

[i_imperator]

Most likely will play the new Civs the same as the old ones.

Make Friends
Build Army
Denounce Friends
Watch the World Burn.

You forgot nukes and raising the sea levels while your civ goes to space

 

[Victoria]

I am desperate to play Hungary for the CS levy, just to see how it goes.
I want to see if the additional early production and faith combines with a guaranteed classical golden is enough to sustain the Maori.
I also will probably want to play them a second time as a Toa beeline game.
I want to play Inca to see if the slingers are as OP as claimed, it is a bit of a wait for them
I want to play Victoria with Cardiff as a CS, to try out a massive city with seasteads and play with workshop of the world.
Finally. I want to play Gorgo for the world congress.
After the first week, who knows.

Not sure what my openings will be, probably the same as they have always been, they depend on situation and gut feel.
With response to the question... early settlers are good regardless if you can get away with it. There is a time before Agoge this can often be done, saving military until then gives you 50% build which is important for Mali who has to be very efficient with builds. Also because Mali is gold based I feel the key is to build what you cannot buy as much as possible, getting that government district has always been important as governors are strong and some are a bit stronger now. Beelining apprenticeship may help some of that horrible malus they have... unconvinced by a holy site though. Not that keen on the religious game and you really have a choice of Earth or harvest goddesses for as much faith as you want.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

... you really have a choice of Earth or harvest goddesses for as much faith as you want.

I think this is the biggest change I need to know.
How many chops per city can one get away with without repercussions.
Once I understand that it is business as usual.
Also, if I chop more, is there a way to counter the problems that may occur giving me more chops!?
Especially if they are leaving Harvest in the game as is.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I am curious what can be done with Trajan under a more defensive early game posture. Building a few warriors and upgrading to legions if necessary, but spending the gold from trading lux, horses, diplomatic favor, and frankly anything else I can get my hands on for builders to chop up population in a central city that will be a culture and science generation hub for a x3 promotion Pingala. Could get me places I want to be (feudalism and knights) faster as well as land me culture enough for a x3 Magnus promotion as well (for 80% discount on unit upgrades).

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I am curious what can be done with Trajan under a more defensive early game posture. Building a few warriors and upgrading to legions if necessary, but spending the gold from trading lux, horses, diplomatic favor, and frankly anything else I can get my hands on for builders to chop up population in a central city that will be a culture and science generation hub for a x3 promotion Pingala. Could get me places I want to be (feudalism and knights) faster as well as land me culture enough for a x3 Magnus promotion as well (for 80% discount on unit upgrades).

Just looked that up and now realize you can get 80% off of unit upgrades as you stated in GS for Black Marketeer.
Does that mean for Upgrading or for Rush Buying? Either way it seems good.
They just make Magnus even more powerful... might as well put him back at 100% chop bonus.

I see what you are saying about Rome and Pingala + Connoisseur.
They are just making the game easier. Are they not?

I just finished a game and as usual you can faith buy knights the whole game for 360 faith each.
I keep crying about it but that doesn't prevent me from abusing Faith Purchasing

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Just looked that up and now realize you can get 80% off of unit upgrades as you stated in GS for Black Marketeer.
Does that mean for Upgrading or for Rush Buying? Either way it seems good.
They just make Magnus even more powerful... might as well put him back at 100% chop bonus.

I see what you are saying about Rome and Pingala + Connoisseur.
They are just making the game easier. Are they not?

I just finished a game and as usual you can faith buy knights the whole game for 360 faith each.
I keep crying about it but that doesn't prevent me from abusing Faith Purchasing

I'm fairly certain that if you use Pingala ASAP early for culture and science, you won't need Magnus' 80% off Black Marketeer promotions. As you'll arrive at Feudalism and Stirrups significantly earlier and will be able to upgrade your units over an extended time period which may end up being about the same time as you'd upgrade en masse with the 80% discount with Magnus.

Yeah, 360 faith each is pretty cheap. I think there's a bug that makes Carthage lower the faith buy costs as well as the gold (but can't be sure).

Anyway, Cheers!

 

[Victoria]

I see what you are saying about Rome and Pingala + Connoisseur.

+ Oracle

 

[Stamson]

I am desperate to play Hungary for the CS levy, just to see how it goes.
I want to see if the additional early production and faith combines with a guaranteed classical golden is enough to sustain the Maori.
I also will probably want to play them a second time as a Toa beeline game.
I want to play Inca to see if the slingers are as OP as claimed, it is a bit of a wait for them
I want to play Victoria with Cardiff as a CS, to try out a massive city with seasteads and play with workshop of the world.
Finally. I want to play Gorgo for the world congress.
After the first week, who knows.

Not sure what my openings will be, probably the same as they have always been, they depend on situation and gut feel.
With response to the question... early settlers are good regardless if you can get away with it. There is a time before Agoge this can often be done, saving military until then gives you 50% build which is important for Mali who has to be very efficient with builds. Also because Mali is gold based I feel the key is to build what you cannot buy as much as possible, getting that government district has always been important as governors are strong and some are a bit stronger now. Beelining apprenticeship may help some of that horrible malus they have... unconvinced by a holy site though. Not that keen on the religious game and you really have a choice of Earth or harvest goddesses for as much faith as you want.

I want to try Cree in this multiplayer game. Now that population is way more important, they should be good right? IIRC, Cree can get the most food and highest pop city because those trade routes get insane. Mekewap is just good infrastructure, and I imagine I'll build those wherever I can.

Also, now the recon units have something in between Scout and Ranger, right? So those early Okihtcitaw are going to be even more useful. I was thinking maybe do a bit of fighting with them, then do Terracotta Army wonder for the +20 combat perk. I don't know how many to build though, maybe 4? Problem is that they don't benefit from Agoge so I don't know where to pump 4 of them out in an early build order.

What's your opinion on this plan @Victoria?

 

[Victoria]

What's your opinion on this plan @Victoria?

The Khmer would outstrip your pop early, there are a few other high pop puppies out there.

I think you should try the skirmisher thingy. The +20 was shown to fail with rangers because rangers were still quite weak for their era and the AI targets this class. It is quite possible skirmishers sheds have the sa,e issue but I keep an open mind... I would be interested in the results.

 

[Stamson]

The Khmer would outstrip your pop early, there are a few other high pop puppies out there.

I think you should try the skirmisher thingy. The +20 was shown to fail with rangers because rangers were still quite weak for their era and the AI targets this class. It is quite possible skirmishers sheds have the sa,e issue but I keep an open mind to boost apex wins I would be interested in the results.

What do you think the best Civs for reaching a high pop are?

Skirmishers could be decent with the promotion I think but yeah without it they are totally outclassed by crossbowmen it seems. I guess it's probably not worth the effort.

 

[Victoria]

What do you think the best Civs for reaching a high pop are?

Khmer, Inca,Maori, indonesia

 

[MarigoldRan]

Those Incan slingers are as OP as claimed.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

+ Oracle

I forgot to build the Oracle in my first GS game.
It was available for a long while too.
That would of went well with the Pingala start I used.
Next time... gotta remember about that Oracle.

 

[Victoria]

Next time... gotta remember about that Oracle.

More wonders = more chance you can build the wonder you want.

 

[Onin]

Obviously haven't played much yet but as Mali getting out settlers can be a pain but one thing that helped me was starting my first settler as soon as I hit pop 2 in my capital. Since the Mali capital tends to grow quick due to their food bonus this made it pretty easy to get to three cities relatively fast. It is definitely hard to fit everything you want to do in early with the Mali but fun so far.

 

[MarigoldRan]

What do you think the best Civs for reaching a high pop are?

Skirmishers could be decent with the promotion I think but yeah without it they are totally outclassed by crossbowmen it seems. I guess it's probably not worth the effort.

Unless you're the Incans. And then those Skirms are Hwachas with double shot.