What should we do to ensure polling is fair?
- Thread starter DaveShack
- Start date
Should we amend the Constitution to add (insert your pet project)
Y/N/A
We can find out in 3 days whether it is a waste of time to make an amendment, or we can work for a week or a month on it and then find out it was a waste of time.
Unless you'd like this to be a binding ratification in advance of seeing what the amendment says.
Y/N/A
We can find out in 3 days whether it is a waste of time to make an amendment, or we can work for a week or a month on it and then find out it was a waste of time.
Unless you'd like this to be a binding ratification in advance of seeing what the amendment says.
@dutchfire: donsig will say the proposal in this thread has not been voted on.
@donsig: He's not in charge, but I think we'll use the most votes method.
@donsig: He's not in charge, but I think we'll use the most votes method.
donsig
Low level intermediary
@donsig: He's not in charge, but I think we'll use the most votes method.
Are you using your modly powers to make decisions we should be making as a group? If you are then you can count me out of this game.
donsig
Low level intermediary
Since there are no tags:
No, we will not use that method unless it gets a full majority. If there is no majority vote then it will be repolled. 
@donsig: He's not in charge, but I think we'll use the most votes method.
No, we will not use that method unless it gets a full majority. If there is no majority vote then it will be repolled.
Shattered
Lord of Utopia
you know how redundant thats going to make things donsig? how come youve just now started getting active on the issue of majoritys in the polls. is it because the HOF mod didnt get the vote through? come on man.. to make the decision to do something having to require a clear majority? were going to have to spend many extra days if we dont just accept what vote beat out the other. a majority vote is what people claim is needed when they dont have a vote go their way.. oh well.. maybe im just overanalyzing the situation.. but i dont think we should waste the extra effort and days to find a "majority" in any vote.. and i also fi nd the abstain portion of the voting ticket to be completely and utterly useless. all it does is show us false percentages on who voted yes/no.
donsig
Low level intermediary
Well, I've been talking about majority votes for a few weeks now and I've been suggesting ways to play the democracy games for a few years now.
Yes, I said years. I've been posting on CivFanatics since the pre- ![[civ3]](/images/smilies/civ3.gif "Civ3 Icon [civ3]")
days. Yes, that's Civ three not four.Yes, we will be spending some more days discussing and repolling the HoF Mod issue. But it's not going to delay the start of the game and those who don't want to participate in the discussion or new poll do not have to.
Hyronymus
Troop leader
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I was actually considering writing up some stuff I learnt during my study when I stumbled upon a great site on the internet that covers that much thas has alreasy been said about polls and also adds some important stuff too. Especially mutually exclusive and exhaustive poll options are key requirements for every poll that wants to be taken serious.
http://knowledge-base.supersurvey.com/response-bias.htm
http://knowledge-base.supersurvey.com/response-bias.htm
Shattered
Lord of Utopia
definately agreed with dutchfire
Hyronymus
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What defines a majority in a poll? And how should abstain votes be considered. Allow me to start with the latter.
Abstain votes are votes that have no value to any of the other poll options in a poll. Theoretically you can either include or exclude abstain votes from a poll. Including them would mean dividing the votes equally over the remaining poll options. Let's use the HoF mod poll as an example.
Excluding the abstain votes is another theoretical possibility:
A more important question I personally have though is why the polls have the Abstain poll option. Yes and No are already mutually exclusive and exhaustive, there is no need to poll the "opinionless minds".
Onto majorities. Have they been defined somewhere, I couldn't find a definition of poll majorities. I understand that donsig likes to define it and I myself was keen on them too... once. Suggest you define 60% as a majority. Then every poll needs to have a minimum of 60% on one poll option. Check the current polls and you will see that 60% is unachievable. Also, 60% would perhaps make a nice value for a poll with 2 poll options but not for a poll with any other number of poll options. You would have to define a majority value for polls with N poll options (N = all natural numbers). It really is easier and just as fair to see which poll option received the most votes and just accept that as the outcome.
Abstain votes are votes that have no value to any of the other poll options in a poll. Theoretically you can either include or exclude abstain votes from a poll. Including them would mean dividing the votes equally over the remaining poll options. Let's use the HoF mod poll as an example.
Excluding the abstain votes is another theoretical possibility:
You cannot however assign abstain votes to a selection of poll options that doesn't contain all other poll options. If you do that you are tempering the poll result and not taking the voters seriously.
A more important question I personally have though is why the polls have the Abstain poll option. Yes and No are already mutually exclusive and exhaustive, there is no need to poll the "opinionless minds".
Onto majorities. Have they been defined somewhere, I couldn't find a definition of poll majorities. I understand that donsig likes to define it and I myself was keen on them too... once. Suggest you define 60% as a majority. Then every poll needs to have a minimum of 60% on one poll option. Check the current polls and you will see that 60% is unachievable. Also, 60% would perhaps make a nice value for a poll with 2 poll options but not for a poll with any other number of poll options. You would have to define a majority value for polls with N poll options (N = all natural numbers). It really is easier and just as fair to see which poll option received the most votes and just accept that as the outcome.
ordinaryguy
Back to Civ!
Don't factor in the abstain votes. Just do another private poll.
Maybe we should discuss what to do in the future when we have this problem next time.
Maybe we should discuss what to do in the future when we have this problem next time.
Hyronymus
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I say just don't offer the Abstain poll option. That keeps us far from any possible different points of view when reading out the poll scores. The poll option with the most votes wins.
Did anyone think about a tied poll - a poll where both (all) poll options have the same amount of votes? I presume someone has and that a quick re-poll is suggested then?
Did anyone think about a tied poll - a poll where both (all) poll options have the same amount of votes? I presume someone has and that a quick re-poll is suggested then?
ravensfire
Member of the Opposition
Deleted to allow for DaveShack's action.
-- Ravensfire
-- Ravensfire
Hyronymus
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Forgive me for challenging this topic a little more but if we do not count abstain votes, why are we interested in knowing the number? To rub it in it 
?! And if you don't see an option you support then you just don't vote (and not complain afterwards too). Using the amount of abstain votes as an indicator is indeed an option but seeing Abstain in a poll might lead people to vote Abstain rather than doing some brainwork and thinking why A is better than B.
?! And if you don't see an option you support then you just don't vote (and not complain afterwards too). Using the amount of abstain votes as an indicator is indeed an option but seeing Abstain in a poll might lead people to vote Abstain rather than doing some brainwork and thinking why A is better than B.Tradition?
As I recall, last game every poll *had to* have an abstain option, but they weren't counted.
You might compare them to the radio-active monkey option in OT. People just like to click, by not giving them the option to abstain, there's a chance they'll just click something randomly.
As I recall, last game every poll *had to* have an abstain option, but they weren't counted.
You might compare them to the radio-active monkey option in OT. People just like to click, by not giving them the option to abstain, there's a chance they'll just click something randomly.
No, we will not use that method unless it gets a full majority. If there is no majority vote then it will be repolled.
Except that my position on how to do polling is backed by a poll and yours is not.
Seriously though, show me another citizen who thinks abstain should count. There is a remote possibility that there are some posts I haven't read since the new forum opened. We certainly have a boatload of people who say abstain should not count.
ice2k4
Emperor
Maybe we should stop arguing, and write up a small initiative, deciding on how abstain votes should be counted, see if it gets passed, and then come back to this.
...
I believe that abstain should be kept. Consider the HoF mod poll and Mac players. Since the DG game is Windows based Mac players can't view the save anyway, therefore 'Abstain' is a valid option for them. What about polls on government types? What if I don't like any of the proposals, therefore shouldn't I be allowed to 'Abstain', thereby showing my support for none of the proposals.
What if I don't like any of the options, by not having the 'Abstain' you are saying I can't be a part of the process.
The simple fact is 'Abstain' doesn't cause a problem if it is left as an option. The only time it causes a problem is when someone tries to use it to figure out a close vote. Realize, that even without the 'Abstain', more than likely it's still going to be a close vote.
I'm beginning to wonder if we should include a statement in our polling process that states if the 'Abstain' option gets greater than or equal to x% than the poll is invalid, or nullified due to the people. I'm not entirely sure on the exact nature of my suggestion, but if enough citizens agree its worth looking into I'd be willing to work on it.
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