What should we do to ensure polling is fair?

The judiciary reviewing polls would meet what I'm looking for, if they do it before the poll closes or goes into effect. An individual would be better for speed, but is subject to misuse.

We could also extend the Coup Concept to polls (and call them challenge polls?): any individual could call to invalidate a poll, a 60% vote needed in order to pass. The results of the original poll wouldn't take effect until the results of the challenge poll were in.

Ravensfire, pretty good work on your proposal. I agree with keeping any mention of "abstain" out of it for the moment. BTW, I think Hyronymus is right-on with his analysis of the meaning and function of abstain.
 
Deleted to allow for DaveShack's action.

-- Ravensfire
 
Deleted to allow for DaveShack's action.

-- Ravensfire
 
The challenge poll doesn't work when it's really urgent that we don't do what the poll calls for. Go back to one of the original examples:

Who will we declare war on the beginning of this play session
France
Spain
Germany

What if the majority don't want to declare war at all? Suppose the poll ends 15 minutes before the play session, and the instructions are "Declare war according to results of poll". Without someone having the ability to invalidate the poll result, the DP would be forced to declare on someone, knowing the people don't want it.

I will predict the answer from some people might be "tough luck, don't vote for the idiot who posted the poll, next term". But the game might be irretrievably lost before the next election.

Or the DP can ignore the instruction and not declare on anyone.

Or the play session can be cancelled, and we waste another 3 days waiting for the next one.

I'd rather have someone shoot down the poll as soon as it appears.
 
The challenge poll doesn't work when it's really urgent that we don't do what the poll calls for. Go back to one of the original examples:

Who will we declare war on the beginning of this play session
France
Spain
Germany

What if the majority don't want to declare war at all? Suppose the poll ends 15 minutes before the play session, and the instructions are "Declare war according to results of poll". Without someone having the ability to invalidate the poll result, the DP would be forced to declare on someone, knowing the people don't want it.

Isn't there a minimum duration for a poll? My thought was that as soon as a bogus poll opened, someone who opposed it could open a second poll to cancel the first. If the second gets a majority (it's yes or no, period), then the first poll has no official standing.
 
Deleted to allow for DaveShack's action.

-- Ravensfire
 
There is some danger to this scenario - unrest in the meta-game.

You post a poll.
I don't like it, so I post a similar poll, yet worded slightly differently. You poll is now superceded.
You repost your poll, with your wording, because you don't like my poll. My poll is now superceded.

And on, and on, and on.

Yes, there is always the danger that concurrent polls are in conflict as to intent - one poll decides to war on France while at the same time another poll decides to ally with France.

The second poll I had in mind was simply: "Cancel the first poll - yes or no". If this second poll fails, then the first poll takes effect with whatever it decided. If the second poll succeeds, then the first is null and void. And they are timed to end simultaneously, so you know right then which way to go.
 
Still clearer than the poll to declare war against A, B or C:

A poll to decide declare war against all civs clicking with the left hand or

clicking with the right hand.

What about if Judiciary was given the power to declare invalid said polls?

(because they apriori exclude possible valid decisions, like declare war to D

or not to declare war at all).

Best regards,
 
Deleted to allow for DaveShack's action.

-- Ravensfire
 
For the cases where the poll is unfair because critical options are not provided, why rely on enough voters protesting to tip the vote? Let's have a mechanism where someone invalidates the poll.

Sure, DaveShack, we'll just make you Censor again and let you decide what's good and bad for all of us. :rolleyes:

As Ravensfire pointed out, we either need a large list of criteria for judging polls - and the larger the list the greater the chances of a decent poll being thrown out on a technicality - or we need someone (a Censor type official or the judiciary or a poll commission or something) to judge each and every poll. Both options politicize the issue.

You've been crying that you want a simple method for the DG. I've given you one:

  1. All completed forum polls are equally binding.
  2. Only options getting a majority of the votes cast (no matter what options are available) are to be considered group decisions.
  3. All polls must have a catch all option that is counted when determining whether a majority has decided on one option.

Since any other option politicizes the process it makes sense to build the invalidation into the poll itself and let citizens decide the issue on a case by case basis. The catch all option could even be:

I object to this poll. Choosing this option will be counted towards determining a majority. Please post your reasons for objecting so we can have better polls in the future.
 
My opinions:

We don't need to make every decision with a majority. "Most votes wins" is sufficient in my opinion.

We do need a way to invalidate a poll if it's a bad poll, no matter how few people think it's a bad poll. That power must be placed in the hands of someone we trust. There is always the "false or misleading" language in the forum rules to fall back on, if it comes to that. I really don't want to go there unless forced -- I'd rather the people choose someone to police it based on DG rules instead of forum rules.
 
Let's assign a committee for poll evaluation :D.
 
Clearly a poll can be fair or unfair; that is connected to the question, not to

the answer.

To declare war on France, yes or not - is fair;

To declare war on France or Germany - is unfair.

That's obvious. Since it is a problem about a (possible future) rule and not

about a decision, it looks a good task for Judicature.

Best regards,
 
My opinions:

We don't need to make every decision with a majority. "Most votes wins" is sufficient in my opinion.

We do need a way to invalidate a poll if it's a bad poll, no matter how few people think it's a bad poll. That power must be placed in the hands of someone we trust. There is always the "false or misleading" language in the forum rules to fall back on, if it comes to that. I really don't want to go there unless forced -- I'd rather the people choose someone to police it based on DG rules instead of forum rules.

Why don't you try being consistent in your stances DaveShack? In the past you've advocated interpreting things the way the majority want them interpreted yet when presented with a system that does just that you balk - and worse yet talk about resorting to a vague forum rule so you can invoke your moderator powers if necessary (and of course YOU will be the judge, jury and executioner when deciding what is necessary).

We tried using an official last game to invalidate polls and it was a total disaster. Setting aside for now the questions of whether we can all agree on someone we can trust or whether anyone by him or her self is competent enough to make such judgements, don't you think the job is a bit much for one person? Last game the censor did not even make a post in every poll but fell back on the reprehensible tactic of declaring all polls valid unless otherwise stated!

I'm not suggesting that we need a committee to do this as that would be an even greater disaster.

If we build the invalidation method into the poll then we all get a say in whether a poll is fair or not. Using an other option and counting those towards figuring the majority, would put the invalidation process into the hands of the citizens. We could still use abstain and not count those towards the majority calculation. It's simple, it's objective and it's straight forward. I really don't see your problem with the proposal.

It does have to be coupled with the idea of tossing out pluraity (or minority) decisions. But that ties in with the fix for our elected official woes. Elected officials are bound by majority decisions, they are not bound by pluraity decisions. By sticking with majority decisons we have a clearcut and fair criteria for knowing when officials must follow a poll and when they can use their own judgement in creating game play instructions. By allowing officials to make decisions in the absence of majority decisions we make offices more appealing. By allowing anyone to post any kind of binding poll (and making all completed forum polls binding) we safeguard citizens from officials who want to manipulate polls so they can make their own decisions. Leaders are still free to lead and post polls the old fashioned way. Officials may not be bound to follow plurality decisons but if they want to win re-election they will certainly have to seriously consider the wishes of these sizeable blocks of voters.

If you look at the whole system I'm proposing you'll see that it has checks and balances and addresses many of the complaints we've heard from various corners in past democracy games. I am really mystified (and quite frustrated) that the proposal is given such short shrift, especially in the name of doing things the old (and unsuccessful) way.
 
I'm equally mystified that someone can advocate allowing officials to totally ignore a clear decision by the citizens.

Do you want a peace treaty?
Yes - 8
No - 1
Abstain - 8

Should the official be allowed to play on, at war, because 8 people don't care? This gives 1 person, possibly that very same official, the right to decide what the other 16 people do.

This should be seen as a majority decision, 8-1 in favor of peace. The 8 people who abstained had their chance to influence things and chose not to take it.

The other alternative, not playing at all because we don't have a decision, is even worse. Demogames die from lack of activity.

I've never said you can't try to convince enough people that the way you want to do it is better. It's going to take about 25 converts if the poll numbers stay the way they have been.
 
I'm also wondering if we need to have a specific amount of time that a discussion thread has to be posted prior to creating its poll. We just had a poll posted where the discussion thread has only been open for 15.5 hours, not even a full day. The game doesn't even start for almost two weeks so I don't understand why everyone is rushing.

The problem I see is people where argue to correctness on the poll if not enough time is allowed for discussion, of which I totally agree on this case.

I mean no offense Shattered, but you jumped the gun on your poll.
 
Deleted to allow for DaveShack's action.

-- Ravensfire
 
One day to discuss before the votes looks good; and to vote only one day

is needed.

Best regards,
 
After reading through this thread, it strikes me that there (at least) two ways we could go to simplify this polling mess.

If we were feeling brave, we could just toss out the idea of a binding poll altogether. Polls relating to game decisions would all be considered advisory in nature. An independent group (anyone up for reforming the Polling Standards Commission?) could police the polls, of course, to provide officials with information on which polls they think are fairest. Of course, woe to the official who goes against a majority vote come the next election cycle or coup. That is, of course, the nature of some elected officials in real-world democratic systems - bodies like the Senate and Electoral College in the United States were meant to moderate the feared excess of mob rule by being removed from democracy.

A second, perhaps more palatable, option may be to simply define the age-old abstain option as a vote against the poll itself. At its close, it a poll's abstain option has the most votes of all the possible options, the poll's results are invalid. Alternatively, we could set a threshold - if, for example, 25% of a poll's total respondents vote abstain, the poll is invalid.
 
This is obviously a touchy subject and since I was not involved with the last
demo game I'm not sure how this will all play out once we get going in the game, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.

It seems to me that if we elect certain officers to make decisions involving the game, we should give them a bit of latitude regarding the running of our civ. Coming from that point of view, I have to agree with Donsig that if we are going to be basing policy off of polls we should require an absolute majority for it to become, in effect, law. It seems that there are a lot of people who believe that an abstain vote means the person just didn't care. People can cast abstain votes for any number of reasons, the least of which would be because they don't care. If that were the case they wouldn't be tkaing the time to vote in the poll.
 
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