What specialists will we use?

[DaveShack]

If we continue with choosing Caste System, what specialists will we use it for? Let's figure out the net benefit (or loss) from this controversial civics choice.

Caste System will increase our civics maintenance from 56 to 62, a loss of 6gpt. This will shorten the amount of time until we have to reduce the science rate by one turn, and we'll be breaking even at 30% instead of making 7gpt.

I'll start the city list.

Without Caste System, Equus Aurum has the ability to hire 1 engineer, 2 merchants, 2 scientists, and 3 priests, totaling 8 specialists. EA can actually hire 4 specialists if we go -1 on food, or 3 if we want to stay +1 food, by changing to all food tiles. That would increase our GPT defecit if merchants are chosen, because the tiles we would switch to specialists to keep even on food would have to be high gold tiles which make more gold than the 3g that merchants make.

Analysis: EA cannot currently benefit from Caste System. We have plenty of specialist hiring power already and can't really use it. We would have to add farms and grow just to break even on gold when choosing the best specialist for gold. Production would also suffer, being reduced from 10 hammers to 5.

Ainu could use up to 3 specialists, by stopping growth. The courthouse would be elongated to 91 turns, which would just get us deeper into the negative GPT hole. Sure, we might get 9g or 9 beakers, but as cities are added the maintenance costs will increase.

Analysis: Ainu cannot benefit from Caste System. At best, we come close to breaking even, but long term it seems to be a negative.

 

[Methos]

Something to add to this discussion also is whether or not we are able to run a cottage economy. Again, I looked only at my aimag cities and not the whole empire. A lot has changed since I've been gone.

In my experience, you need to either go the CE or the SE route. So I think we need to look at the full empire and see which one we are closer to attaining. I know we already have some cottages up, but I also noticed most of them were still at the base level. Which would benefit us the most and which would be achieved the quickest?

Also realize that IME a SE is best with Representation and Caste, so the discussion should include both civics.

 

[ordinaryguy]

In my experience, you need to either go the CE or the SE route.

I disagree. It is perfectly possible to have a hybrid, which most of my games do, by the way, especially if the AI controls the city governor.

Cottages are essential. But so are specialists. They will appear as cities grow larger and have no good tiles to work but there is a surplus of food. Then, specialists are better than just working the plains tile.

Of course, if the citizens want to focus on one aspect, I have no problems with them. I would be very interested on how to run a specialist economy, however, as I don't know how to do it.

 

[grant2004]

I'm betting on a change to mercantilism in the near future, a move which makes caste system far better than all alternatives especially with the representation civic.

Also in the short term there are a number of cities which can benefit from caste system. Orleans which will grow in 14 turns has no more improved tiles that it can work and with caste system would be able to support a merchant or scientists, which it can't do now. Paris is in a similar situation, but is growing much sooner.

City #1 and Ainu are both growing quickly, but they don't have the infrastructure to support specialists, caste system would allow them to put a merchant or scientist into their city once they grow again.

If the mercantilism civic comes every city on our continent can get a new merchant or scientist, this will result in a huge increase in either science or a large increase in science with a decrease in our deficit. Some may think that it is an odd strategy to switch to caste system now if another change will be necessary to get the full effect. The question will be asked why can't we just change to caste system when we switch to mercantilism.

I have to admit part of my reasoning here is that if we already have caste system I believe people will be more willing to support the change to mercantilism, and this combination will be more likely to go through. Not all of the benefits of this switch are in the game itself I'm also adding in the positive effects this change will have in our decision making later on.

 

[DaveShack]

Too much general, not many specifics. For each city, please detail what changes can be made now which will benefit us from changing civics. Will it be a net gain, or a net loss?

What can we do to get these courthouses finished sooner? There is roughly 20gpt tied up in reversible city maintenance charges. A different civics change (slavery) would help, but we're unwilling to do it on morality grounds because we play as enlightened people and not as the Mongols we are emulating.

Another different civics change, serfdom, would speed up all that jungle clearing which is needed to let the northern cities grow to their full potential.

Again, the question should be what will specialists do for us today, not what they will do for us 30 or 40 turns from now.

 

[Provolution]

I think someone does not want serfdom, period, numbers or no numbers.

 

[Methos]

I think someone does not want serfdom, period, numbers or no numbers.

Who is this in reference too? Going through the posts, the only mention of serfdom was from DS and he appeared to be in favor of it.

 

[Provolution]

Well, the main split now is caste system vs. serfdom, that is where the main division line goes right now. I think we need serfdom for a time in order to work the land to the point where caste system works.

 

[Methos]

Having looked at my aimag, Caste System would not be beneficial for me. Lyons, Paris, and Orleans are all setup with cottages and while they have not had much investment with them, I see no reason to change. NOTA could be converted to a mainly specialist city in time, but I don't believe its worth it here either. I'd rather not cut down the forests. Instead, I can see NOTA as a production city that uses some specialist. NOTA can and probably will use some specialists, but thats it.

In conclusion for my aimag, Caste System is not worth it.

 

[Provolution]

Have you ever considered serfdom Methos?

There is a reason to change from Tribalism to Serfdom, 50 % worker speed.

 

[dutchfire]

If we wouldn't research Monotheism for the "ever usefull" OR, but instead continued working towards Banking, we could adopt Mercantilism, giving a specialist in all our cities.

I would have liked to wait with all those civic changes, and change to Representation, Caste System, Mercantilism at the same time, but apparently some people couldn't wait.

 

[Provolution]

This is a democracy game, and in those, very few get to their "dream-outcome".

I sort of hoped for Vassalage to fuel our eternally long wars, but that motion failed with a landslide victory to bureaucracy. This is the nature of demogames, timing and consensus, and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

I think Serfdom and OR won because it is common sense to build our nation faster, not slower. And we needed it now, not later.

 

[DaveShack]

If we wouldn't research Monotheism for the "ever usefull" OR, but instead continued working towards Banking, we could adopt Mercantilism, giving a specialist in all our cities.

I would have liked to wait with all those civic changes, and change to Representation, Caste System, Mercantilism at the same time, but apparently some people couldn't wait.

Free specialists are ok. What Methos and I have pointed out above is that we cannot afford to convert citizens to specialists because doing so would be a net loss in combined production, beakers, and commerce. Thus we don't need Caste System, it has no possible benefit to us.

I see too many people treating civics changes like their favorite combination of civics will work for every game. This is not true, civics need to be used situationally. For the current situation, I'm quite happy to say that the choice of civics winning the polls is very close to the optimum set. Later when we have a different situation, then we may want to change civics again.

 

[Methos]

Thus we don't need Caste System, it has no possible benefit to us.

I agree. Personally, Caste System is one of my favorite civics, but after examining my aimag, it is of no benefit. NOTA is the only city that could benefit, but it would require a lot of work to do so and still wouldn't be worth the time.

Our best options are to have each governor go this his or her aimag and figure out what would be the best civics for that aimag. Than vote or argue your case based off of those results. Every vote I've made was due to how I felt it affected my aimag and not my personal choice. Take for instance, if it wasn't for NOTA being part of my aimag, I probably wouldn't have voted for Bureacracy.

Edit: And no Prov, that doesn't mean I would have gone Vassalage!

 

[dutchfire]

Free specialists are ok. What Methos and I have pointed out above is that we cannot afford to convert citizens to specialists because doing so would be a net loss in combined production, beakers, and commerce. Thus we don't need Caste System, it has no possible benefit to us.

I see too many people treating civics changes like their favorite combination of civics will work for every game. This is not true, civics need to be used situationally. For the current situation, I'm quite happy to say that the choice of civics winning the polls is very close to the optimum set. Later when we have a different situation, then we may want to change civics again.

It is not important now, but it will be key later. Therefor I'm in favour of switching civics later.