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What We Must Need In Civ 5

Why not just have a game where the player's actions are completely eliminated and we can just sit back and watch as an AI plays the game for us? It looks like Firaxis has finally got a handle on micromanagemt by your logic, they're not producing a game at all. That eliminates it completely.

So-called macromanagement is even worse. Not all player interaction should be removed, of course - the things that should be removed are unnecessary clicks. I for one hate bossing around those workers every other turn and would be glad if the AI could reasonably operate them, or if there was a system to create an improvement plan that the workers would automatically fulfill. That wouldn't eliminate gameplay - it would eliminate unnecessary and unfun clickcruft from it. Because Civ is about playing a strategy game about the history of civilizations - not spending half of the time ordering a worker to rebuild the mine destroyed by that darned mine accident...

And back to whipping. Whipping is another kind of micromanagement - it isn't empty clicks. It's worse - to reap the full benefit of the feature, you have to plan it very carefully. And there's nothing wrong with planning, as Civ is a strategy game. But whip planning isn't fun. It isn't even related to rest of the game, as it is just a way to abuse the game mechanics to minmax your production. I would like whipping more if it was equally productive regardless of the timing of the whip - but now, it requires careful planning that distracts from the actual game to reap the full benefits of the feature. Of course, you don't have to plan your whips, but well planned whips are a lot more productive, so yes, you are very much rewarded for spending time on something not even related to your upcoming domination victory.
 
>Ahovking
>
>No macromanagement a little of macromanagement that you can turn off by clicking a button next to your flag you need to think about everone :) thats the only why we can make civ5 better for everone.
>
 
I am in favor of micro-management simply because it makes things more challenging. Sometimes, you just get those games where it was difficult to get to the top, but once you're there, you just sit and eat fat bacon, hitting enter 200 times to win a space race victory. Micromanagement implies that there is something to micro-manage, such as unpleasant worker actions like building forts over resources within your BFC, or whipping, or even a bit of clever diplomacy and specialist assignments. Micromanagement allows you to deal with those challenges, but it also allows them to exist in the first place.
 
Whipping is another kind of micromanagement - it isn't empty clicks. It's worse - to reap the full benefit of the feature, you have to plan it very carefully.

You have to plan your battles out very carefully too, does that mean we should eliminate all units in the game? After all, telling your soldiers where to go and who to attack is just another form of micro-management. If you try and be fanatical about micro-management, you're just going to find that there's nothing left to do in the game. If players want to get obsessive about whipping that's their problem. If you use it logically and responsibly, then it requires less micro-management than almost anything else in the game. It's not even a viable strategy for very long, eventually you'll have a civic that's much better and you'll never whip anything again.
 
>Ahovking
>
>No macromanagement a little of macromanagement that you can turn off by clicking a button next to your flag you need to think about everone :) thats the only why we can make civ5 better for everone.
>
>As I Said we need to have little bits of macaromanagement that can be turn off so both partys can be happy that is the key.
 
I've yet to read a strategy guide that advises that whipping should be done when a city passes the happy cap. Wanna know why? Because it's bad play, Willem. When you say that's how most people whip, all I can think is that by "most people" you mean "some of the dumber people". I mean, did you do a poll? No. You guessed, and you guessed wrong.

Just like you're guessing wrong about me having OCD. If I did, I wouldn't mind regularly checking all my city screens to see if it's a good time to whip. Because, y'know, that's the definition of OCD. Whatever facet of my personality that's prompting me to spend time responding to you is more questionable, I must admit.

You're also wrong with the constant attempts to take assertions to absurd extremes. Nobody is arguing that Fireaxis shouldn't make a sequel, that if they do it shouldn't have any player interaction, that whipping necessarialy should be eliminated altogether, or that units should be completely eliminated, either. This is the sort of thing I was refering to when I sarcasticly called you thoughtful and constructive.

Whipping not being viable long-term because "eventually you'll have a civic that's much better and you'll never whip anything again"? Wrong again. Serfdom is just flat out weaker than slavery. Caste can be better in many cases, but it isn't automatically so. Emancipation is good if you have a lot of cottages but not necessarily stronger than whipping, especially when combined with the Kremlin. And if you don't have many cottages that need growing, all you're doing is avoiding a happiness penalty.

Seeing a trend here?
 
Seeing a trend here?

Yes, you getting hostile because someone questions your playing style. Maybe if you wouldn't "crap" on people who have different ideas on how to play the game you might be able to relieve what you consider your micro-management issues. BTW, there are lots of people who don't whip at all, I guess that makes them complete morons eh?

PS: The bottom line is that the game is not forcing you to check every city each turn in order to determine whether you should whip or not. That's your choice. If you're annoyed about doing that, then it becomes your problem.

BTW: Strategy guides are nothing more than the view of a single person, they're hardly indicative of how most people play. If the general posts dealing with whipping are any indication, most people do indeed just use it when they pass their happy cap. If they use it all.
 
I've yet to read a strategy guide that advises that whipping should be done when a city passes the happy cap. Wanna know why? Because it's bad play, Willem. When you say that's how most people whip, all I can think is that by "most people" you mean "some of the dumber people". I mean, did you do a poll? No. You guessed, and you guessed wrong.

Just like you're guessing wrong about me having OCD. If I did, I wouldn't mind regularly checking all my city screens to see if it's a good time to whip. Because, y'know, that's the definition of OCD. Whatever facet of my personality that's prompting me to spend time responding to you is more questionable, I must admit.

You're also wrong with the constant attempts to take assertions to absurd extremes. Nobody is arguing that Fireaxis shouldn't make a sequel, that if they do it shouldn't have any player interaction, that whipping necessarialy should be eliminated altogether, or that units should be completely eliminated, either. This is the sort of thing I was refering to when I sarcasticly called you thoughtful and constructive.

Whipping not being viable long-term because "eventually you'll have a civic that's much better and you'll never whip anything again"? Wrong again. Serfdom is just flat out weaker than slavery. Caste can be better in many cases, but it isn't automatically so. Emancipation is good if you have a lot of cottages but not necessarily stronger than whipping, especially when combined with the Kremlin. And if you don't have many cottages that need growing, all you're doing is avoiding a happiness penalty.

Seeing a trend here?

Yes, you getting hostile because someone questions your playing style. Maybe if you wouldn't "crap" on people who have different ideas on how to play the game you might be able to relieve what you consider your micro-management issues. BTW, there are lots of people who don't whip at all, I guess that makes them complete morons eh?

> you boys need to work together now what would work best is a Form of micromanagement that can be turned off there for both partys can be happy and will be in the end be best for Civ5
 
*skips past all the off-topic flaming that has no bearing on the thread and nobody cares about other than the involved parties*

I hate how every single civilization game has our ancient leaders of egypt on their games.
its not that i dont like them its just that that original culture of egypt has been washed out by greek, roman, english, turkish, and arabic culture. we have a new identity now, not that of ramses the second or tut ankamen.
...
all i am saying is we should have more modern egyptian leaders like :crazyeye:Gamal Abdelnasser (nasser), :goodjob:Anwar Sadat (saddat), and :king:King Farouk if we were to be tagged to a single identity throughout the game.
please reply on what you think. :D

My thoughts: (with all due respect) this seems like a view born more of parochialism than pragmatism. While your sentiment does have quite a bit of value, as someone else pointed out, most games of this sort –Civ included– go based on historical impact, not whoever's in recent memory. Besides, other civs have the same problem, but apparently Egypt is the only one that's a problem (hence the parochial comment). What about Greece (who until BTS, had only one leader… and he wasn't Greek), the Middle East (shamelessly sh** on in terms of representation), Japan, Italy (not even a civ, just Rome), the Celtic peoples, et al.?

Besides, the leaders for any given civ tend to pertain to roughly the same political entity. Well, aside from the aforementioned tragic choice in Greek leaders. Hatshepsut and Ramsses II paired with, say, Anwar al Sadat, would be kind of odd, as would Alexander, Pericles, and Stephanopoulos or Gilgamesh with al-Maliki. :lol:
 
Some things that could really, really improve the realism of Civ, broken down by category:

1.) FOOD:

Food should be tradable as a regular function, so that agricultural regions can produce food for manufacturing centres, or food can be sold on the open market or traded, like gold. Throughout history, food imports were vital for many of Civ 4 civs:

Rome, (first from outer Italy, then Egypt and Asia minor and, after the Renaissance, from Northern and Eastern Europe)

England (from Canada, the USA and Australia)

etc. etc.

Also, there should be more to fertility. Perhaps areas along a river should produce +1 food? France, for example, can export more food than can Canada because of the fertility of its soil. China is absurdly fertile in the East. This makes a difference.

Firaxis might consider stealing a good concept from MoO II and having producablecargo ship and cart capacity for trade, transport and commerce. A proven good way to improve realism.

2.) PRODUCTION AND COMMERCE

The notion that production strength relies so entirely on immediate access to natural resources is absurd. Production should be broken down into two parts: resource production (hammers, or perhaps, produced resources like wood, iron, coal, oil etc. which can be traded) and that units and buildings require resource points to build. Production itself should depend on labour and labour efficiencies (like buildings.)

For example, labourers could get +1 production from a forge, +1 from factory, some other plus ones from other things.

Commerce could work on a similar principle, with trading requiring a certain amount of infastructure and people to carry out (if you're going to trade cows for 15 gold a turn, some central locus needs to oversee all that.)

Furthermore, cities should get better at producing things as time goes on (maybe +x% for experience producing y. Venice, by the 1600s, could produce a galley every day.)

Between these changes and the changes to food, proper megacities and specialised cities become possible, making simulations of the United States or UK, for example, far more realistic. (As it stands, the RFC map leaves Toronto, Boston, New York and Montreal cramped and tiny while Thunder Bay is a massive metropolis. Kind of silly.)

3.) RESOURCES

These should be modified two ways:

a.) Resources should be relocatable and subject to "theft" by espionage or conquest. For example, the theft of silkworm specimens from China and of Coffee specimens from South American colonies were major feats of espionage with wide-ranging economic and political consequences.

The fact that you can't start growing wheat in a new location is absurd.

There should be an espionage option of "steal resource" that can take horses, silk, dye etc. and create a new resource somewhere in the territory of the new colony, some factors (like comparable suitable climate, maybe determined by latitdues and longitudes.) Also someone ought to be able to start sheep, cow and horse colonies in Australia or America.

Second, there should be manufactured resources differentiated from raw ones. Cities should be able to produce goods for export. Some ideas: fine leather, jewlery, silk garments, fine draperies, cars, consumer electonics etc. as luxury items.

Carts, trucks, weapons, cargo ships as tradable strategic items.

Cities should be able to "learn" to make these items better, over time. One of the issues with civ is that all tech improvement is "big picture." A lot of the most important discoveries, economically speaking, have been minor imporvements to manufacturing.

Over time, specialist labourers should accumulate mastery points, to produce a higher quality of good (levels I, II, III, IV silk garments etc.) which provide greater bonuses and thus trade for higher values. A player can thus choose to specialise at becoming really, really good a producing a few items, and trading these away.

These skill levels should be stealable through espionage (like France stole silk manufacturing processes from Italy.)

Civics choices might modify these processes (mercantilism = better security, quicker upgrades, more control. free market = less control, less planning, more profit/benefits/production. State property= crappy resource production.)

4.) ARMIES

Armies should have supply lines, like in MoO II, and subject to blockade by land or sea. They should need to 1.) be paid, 2.) recievestrategic resources (fuel etc) 3.) eat. Some can be pillaged (consuming resources locally, which also raised the prospect of a torched-earth and guerrilla strategy) and some shipped in by road, overland, rail or sea, with different terrains/distances requiring more transport-points.

5.) CIVICS

Rip the Tax rate, rations, minimum wages and beer and circuses from Lords of the Realm II.

6.) STABILITY AND PLAGUE

The RFC Stability and Plauge functions are awesome. Bring them in. But collapse shouldn't leave you with only your capital. Maybe only a third of your territory, or facing a rival civilization in need of conquest, like with the American civil war.

Stability should NOT primarily be based on happiness, necessarily. Distance and economic differences might exacerbate problems. But the American colonies had the worlds highest living standards in 1776, and rebel cities in Italy broke with the Holy Roman Empire because they were richest, happiest and strongest in the Empire, not weakened and resentful. A strategy of keeping the hinterland down might not be unrealistic (Italian dominant cities kept their client cities weakened intentionally for just this reason.)

7.) IMMIGRATION

Also a rip from Lords of the Realm II. Population should leave poorer and less happy cities for richer and more happy countries, depending on a new Civic choice IMMIGRATION (?) that handles such things. Immigrants keep old nationalities, to some extent, allowing cities like New York or Paris to have a mixed nationality bar, despite being deep in American or Frech territory.

Another incentive to keep ones people happy, and an easy way to gain population from one's adversaries, as well as potential for espionage, commerce or military bonuses.

All and all, these changes should 1.) make the game more dynamic, by allowing for a wider variety of strategies. 2.) Give better survivability to smaller civs, above all 3.) making the game more "realistic" without making it too hands-off, the kiss of death to MoO III.
 
I'm not mad and hardly flaming. I don't even think I'm off topic. Willem's just wrong. Since he's being wrong here, I'm guessing it's on topic. You'll know when I start flaming because I'll start calling somebody an asshead directly instead of pointing out the assheaded aspects of his positions.

Now obviously some of the people posting here do enjoy micromanagement. Kullerevo thinks it adds difficulty. I disagree. If micromanagement adds difficulty, I'd consider it a sort of fake difficulty or minigame. I enjoy mind tweaking a bit here and there, I don't like needing to order individual citizens around in order for my empire to run. I'm supposed to be el supremo of my imperial domain, not head janitor.

Sure, micro's great at the beginning. If you have 3 cities, 5 workers, 3 garrison troops (that you don't have to worry about) and a small stack to take out barbarians, ordering them around is fun. Not much to do early on, so the more micro the better. That can get out of hand pretty quickly, though. By the time I have 10 cities, I have 15+ workers, and at least five of my cities are making units that have to be told where to go.

By the late game I find it very unfun. On a standard size map it can take hours to just play a few turns of modern warfare, so I tend to avoid offensive wars past... well, TBH I rarely play at all past the industrial era. The end is usually certain by then and playing to completion is mainly just to see what the score will be. This is not a new problem with Civ IV, nor is it unique to the series. If there's going to be a Civ V, I'd really appreciate it if the designers continued to streamline and rewarded avoidance of micromanagement, especially after industrialization.

Sure, I could automate workers, it's just wouldn't be optimal. No worries, play on a lower difficulty. I could avoid slavery, too, same deal. I'm already doing that. I play on Prince and Monarch when I know damn well that I can beat Emperor. I think it sucks that I find myself avoiding war and avoiding completing the game because of tedium, even on Prince and Monarch.

I'd like to see a staff system for the military. I'd like to see better AI for workers, a way of drawing what I want built on the map, or a project interface for improvements, and a reward, not a penalty for using it. I'd go so far as to say, yes, I would like to see units abolished in the late game if it lets me stop hand delivering orders to every last senior officer in my military and get on with running the show. I really can't say I care much about graphics or music that I'll turn off anyway or having heaps of different units or how Civilization has failed to properly respect my cultural heritage. I'd love it if somebody could figure out how to make the late game exciting, even if it involves introducing some high-impact random events-- although I know a lot of players would really hate that.
 
You have to plan your battles out very carefully too, does that mean we should eliminate all units in the game? After all, telling your soldiers where to go and who to attack is just another form of micro-management. If you try and be fanatical about micro-management, you're just going to find that there's nothing left to do in the game. If players want to get obsessive about whipping that's their problem. If you use it logically and responsibly, then it requires less micro-management than almost anything else in the game. It's not even a viable strategy for very long, eventually you'll have a civic that's much better and you'll never whip anything again.

Managing combat and units is different, because it's a vital part of the game. Civ is a strategy game based on human history - research, diplomacy, war. Strategy is a part of the game. Whip planning isn't strategy - it's just mathematics. Calculations for the optimal whip. Whipping could be a nice and refreshing part of the game, and the feature is very good as a concept, but it isn't thought out carefully enough to prevent abuse.

You're right in a way - no one forces players to micromanage whipping and whipping can be used well without micromanagement. However, since the rewards for abusing the overflow for wonder production and planning your whips very carefully are often very significant, I find the feature as it currently stands flawed.

I don't think it should be scrapped entirely - it just needs to be fixed so it won't be overly powerful for those willing to spend ages trying to figure the best whipping times. This is simply because if some minmaxer is willing to do it, the other players are disadvantaged. To remain competitive in multiplayer, everyone must check their cities for optimal whips. Wouldn't it simply be better if the system was made abuseproof for everyone? Everyone could whip and no one had to check their 20 cities every turn to ensure they weren't wasting a precious opportunity to whip. It would simply be more fun for everyone and allow the players to concentrate on the important part - technology, empire building and of course - warfare.
 
After reading Leibnitz' post, I was thinking maybe if you chose the city type when you settled it. Say you had the choice of food, gold, or hammer, eh? If you pick food, it maximizes food tiles and supports the cities around it. If it can't support another city-- say the nearest city is also designated "food"-- it would grow instead.

You could change the city type later, eh, if you needed to, but there'd be a cost.
 
After reading Leibnitz' post, I was thinking maybe if you chose the city type when you settled it. Say you had the choice of food, gold, or hammer, eh? If you pick food, it maximizes food tiles and supports the cities around it. If it can't support another city-- say the nearest city is also designated "food"-- it would grow instead.

You could change the city type later, eh, if you needed to, but there'd be a cost.

Possibly a nice alternative but I'm personally fond of the traditional system. I also like the fact that Civ IV is reasonably good at automatically choosing what the citizens should do, but perhaps a way to boss them without entering the city screen would add some flow...
 
I know that very many people have said this before but...

BETTER MUSIC! seriously, the modern age music is annoying as 8 cats of various genders on your roof at night (and believe me, I know what I am talking about. It's only funny the first 30 seconds.:mad:) Most of it seems to be random violin scratchings and an extremely un-original chorale. Make some things like Stravinsky, or Mahler's later symphonies, or even the early days of rock (And Led Zeppelin, because I like LZ). And the medieval sound track gets annoying as well, especially since there's what, 3 different pieces there?

There are about eight or nine different medieval pieces (from memory). They include Allegri's 'Miserere', Brumel's 'Gloria' (from the Earthquake Mass), Shepherd's 'Media Vita' and at least three plainsong chants I don't recognise. But I guess you were being sarcastic. Perhaps the reason the medieval music seems so unendurable to you is that the medieval era tends to last quite a long time in the game.

Anyway, I'm a bit fed up with reading people who don't like the John Adams music. It's extremely varied and has a lot of subtlety. And I'd have thought a Sibelius fan would have realised that 'Shaker Loops' sounds a lot like Sibelius (but stuck in the groove, as one critic - who liked the piece, btw - put it). The wonderful 'Harmonielehre' also has a lot of Mahlerian overtones (in fact, bits of it put me in mind of the last movement of Mahler's Tenth - and, in fact, the opening of 'Harmonielehre' is almost identical to the opening of Sibelius's Fourth). If you think Adams's stuff sounds like screeching cats, you should hear some of Penderecki's music (before he went all neo-Romantic).

I agree that the music could be revamped and, yes, the modern era could do with an injection of Stravinsky, Mahler, Sibelius, et al. (I'd want to add Prokofiev and Shostakovich, myself). But I think Firaxis - or whoever was responsible - made an excellent choice in using Adams and deservedly bringing his music to a wider audience.

As for micro-management, it's the reason I don't play the game on higher levels. But the beauty of Civ is you can play on a level where you feel comfortable and have fun, which is after all the point.
 
Id love a sphere map.

economic victory and maybe a spy victory would be awsome ( assasinate leader or something ).

I saw how the ressources work in colonisation and I loved the principles something like that is required too.

an other thing I was thinking about :
every citizen should always be specialist.
ie : you start with farmers witch are better on farm.
putting some building to train them more rapidly.
 
Id love a sphere map.

economic victory and maybe a spy victory would be awsome ( assasinate leader or something ).

I saw how the ressources work in colonisation and I loved the principles something like that is required too.

an other thing I was thinking about :
every citizen should always be specialist.
ie : you start with farmers witch are better on farm.
putting some building to train them more rapidly.

I for one wouldn't like being assassinated by an AI :p perhaps if there was a reasonable way to defend against it. I have no objections about economic victory, but the best option would be to merge diplomatic and economic somehow - the very same way things work in real life!

I wouldn't personally like Colonization economy in Civ, although I love it in Col. This is simply because I find great wisdom in Sid Meier's Covert Action rule - if we add a complex and interesting resource system, it will divert us from the war/research/whatever we were doing. Colonization economy fits Colonization perfectly - it is focused on building and trade, while Civ's economy is focused on research and warfare. Colonization would literally suck with Civ economy, and I don't think it's possible to fit Colonization economy into Civ without changing the rest of the game a lot - If Civ V will use a similar economy system, it would be a lot more build-and-managey than the rest of the series.
 
Anyway, I'm a bit fed up with reading people who don't like the John Adams music.

Sorry to hear you're angry that some people have different tastes. :rolleyes:

That aside, sure it has subtlety and variety, but pieces can be subtle and varied and still be pleasant. Which is where most modern classical misses the mark in my opinion.
 
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