What were they doing anyway?

DemonDeLuxe said:
Oh, yes, I am SURE they tested the game well. The question, however, is, what IS "well"? It was certainly "well" from the point of view of the Take2 marketing guys. The amount of bugs and careless omissions we see is proof that it was quite definitely NOT tested "well" enough for the average Joe Customer.

What amount of Bugs do you see?? Even according to the poll the clear majority has been able to play the Game without problems. And if as huge Majority can run the Game it is fit for the average Customer (i hope you know what average means).

As others have stated in todays world it becomes nearly impossible to have a program working on all available Hardware/Drivers combinations.
 
bky1701 said:
Let me first say the game works fine, 100% for me.



Now, let me dismiss the “it would cost 150$” ideas right now.

The more people that can run the game, the more people will buy the game.

Now if I sell 6000 games at 20$ each with a development cost of 2000$ and a testing cost of 600$ I will make 117,400$.

But if I sell 80,000 games at 20$ each with a development cost of 2000$ and a testing cost of 8,000$ I will make a whopping 1,590,000$

They would make MORE without changing the cost, not LESS.


Next, the “it’s impossible to know” idea.

Well it’s simply NOT impossible to know.

If there are 50 video cards I say the game will work on, that is only 50 video cards I need to test the game working on. It would be one thing if it was a random occurrence that it would not work on some video cards; but that is NOT the case. Almost every user with certain video cards has not been able to run the game. We are not talking an Intel P4, ATI something-something and 800 MB of ram. We are talking ONE PART, BY ITSELF causing all the problems, NOT a mixture of parts.


And last, the “it’s up to the user to fix it” idea.

This is just so absurd it’s not funny. If I sell you are car and it doesn’t work at all, who’s problem is it? It’s MY problem for selling you the non-working car!

This post had me hanging my head in shame. As if releasing a bug-free game (a laughable concept in and of itself) would result in a 15-fold increase in sales! Of course they would make more money by testing more thoroughly if the game had a 93% failure rate to begin with! Even people on these forums have been tossing around 20% as the failure rate, a claim I find dubious.

And we're only talking about one computer part, are we? And pray tell, exactly which card has failed for 100% of users? For any video card, if there's at least one person who has that card and the game works for them, then this claim is thoroughly refuted. Also, it's easy to say now that they should have checked every video card, as hindsight is 20/20. To be truly 100% thorough as everyone seems to demand, they would still have to test every combination of cards, drivers, operating systems, motherboards, etc. Even if you're right, and it's only the video card causing problems, should the developers really have just assumed this from the get-go? Would you really have wanted them to just ignore the other components of a computer and just test video cards? What then, if it happened to be a RAM issue? Would you have flipped positions and say that every RAM speed/brand/quantity should have been tested?

And computers/programs being up to the user to fix it isn't terribly absurd. Computers have always been a very technical area, requiring some amount of expertise. Anyone remember DOS? Not exactly 100% user friendly there, either. Of course, there have been great strides in recent years trying to make computers more user-friendly, but as of now, this is not reality. The computer is still just a tool, if you want to get the most out of it, you need to know how it ticks.
 
Rowain deWolf said:
What amount of Bugs do you see?? Even according to the poll the clear majority has been able to play the Game without problems. And if as huge Majority can run the Game it is fit for the average Customer (i hope you know what average means).

As others have stated in todays world it becomes nearly impossible to have a program working on all available Hardware/Drivers combinations.

Give me a break, I beg you. If your last sentence was true, then those game company would have to answer to the question: "So why do you try the 'impossible' instead of producing technology you can actually handle?"

Try to apply your logic to ANY other product and let's see how valid it would be. And what exactly would make computer programs so totally different that regular market laws wouldn't apply to them?

E.g. think about blue ray discs. What would you say if they produced music on those and many people would hear strange noise when listening to it, and then some wiseguy pops up and declares: "You know, in today's world it becomes nearly impossible to have a blue ray disc working on all available blue ray disc players..." What would the very simple, but correct answer be?

"Then stick to friggin' CDs and DVDs if you're not up to the task, dangit!"

If you want a list of bugs, have fun in the tech & bug report forum. I'm not in the mood to repeat them just to support your laziness / thickheadedness (your choice).
 
spymonkey said:
And pray tell, exactly which card has failed for 100% of users?

ATI Mobility Radeon 7500

spymonkey said:
And computers/programs being up to the user to fix it isn't terribly absurd. Computers have always been a very technical area, requiring some amount of expertise. Anyone remember DOS? Not exactly 100% user friendly there, either. Of course, there have been great strides in recent years trying to make computers more user-friendly, but as of now, this is not reality. The computer is still just a tool, if you want to get the most out of it, you need to know how it ticks.

I do remember DOS, but I do remember the Amiga, as well. No game with issues like CIV4 would have survived on it, primarily because then it was not as common to have an internet access and thus access to new patches.

Granted, Amiga machines did not differ as widely in architecture as today's PCs do. Then again, game companies earned only a tiny fraction of the money they make today. It is a fair guess that a popular game today earns 100-1000 times the money it did then. I would seriously expect a parallel increase in quality assurance. If not - hey, quite obviously someone has money to waste, and I do NOT mean the customers.

And, frankly, I am *so* tired of that bull**** talk about how it was impossible to make a well-performing game today and how much it is the user's fault and so on blablabla.

It is indeed VERY easy: The customer pays money. Afterwards he can voice his opinion whether he is content with the product. If he is not - who are you to tell him otherwise? Who are YOU to judge what other people have to accept? Speak for yourself.
 
I wonder why no trade mag mentioned the bugs in their review? I mean, everybody wants to like this game, but I'd be very surprised if the reviewers had absolutely no problems whatsoever.

Oh well, it taught me something I should have known: Always check the community forums for any game you plan to purchase. If the tech support and bug forum are among the most busy, then better wait.

Here's looking forward to patch 1.1.

rgds/EoE
 
EoE said:
I wonder why no trade mag mentioned the bugs in their review? I mean, everybody wants to like this game, but I'd be very surprised if the reviewers had absolutely no problems whatsoever.

Oh well, it taught me something I should have known: Always check the community forums for any game you plan to purchase. If the tech support and bug forum are among the most busy, then better wait.

Here's looking forward to patch 1.1.

rgds/EoE

On some thread a couple of weeks ago a reviewer posted. The gist of it was that:

1) Reviewers have high powered machines (stands to reason). They also have professionally-built machines, rather than custom jobs (which tend to have idiosyncrasies). They have good components from top brands, rather than knock-offs or heavily-discounted older components.

2) Reviewers tend to give the game the benefit of the doubt in regard to bugs, because it is assumed and standard in the industry for a bug to be patched (how quickly is immaterial). A review is in hard copy, and no reviewer wants for his work to be "dated". Say he gives it a low grade because of a bug or two. Then, the company fixes the bugs. That review is now unrelated to the product as it stands, and this reflects upon the reviewer more than on the reviewed product.

3) Many so-called bugs are really related more to the user, rather than any lack of robustness on the part of the software.

Personally, I think any one of these reasons is enough.

Wodan
 
It could be your Power Unit's fault, your memory fault, some software, adware, spyware, virus, driver bug, driver conflict, etc...

There are endless combinations. I believe that every one with problems to run Civ4 shoud remove the game and run a few benchmark utilities to be shure your computer is runing well.

Prime95 will stress your CPU and Memory. Futuremark has a few that will broils your graphis card. They are all freelly avalible on the Internet.

Give it a try!
 
Vaiks said:
It could be your Power Unit's fault, your memory fault, some software, adware, spyware, virus, driver bug, driver conflict, etc...

There are endless combinations. I believe that every one with problems to run Civ4 shoud remove the game and run a few benchmark utilities to be shure your computer is runing well.

Prime95 will stress your CPU and Memory. Futuremark has a few that will broils your graphis card. They are all freelly avalible on the Internet.

Give it a try!

Thanks, but my computer is updated, more than adequate and thoroughly tested (long sessions with memory testing and the whole enchilada). I fully expect that a future patch will enable me to run the game, which of course also means, that I am 100% convinced that the problem is with the game.

I'm not here to bash Civ 4, I'm looking for a way to play. And in the meantime, while I frantically scan these forums looking for yet a possible solution I haven't tried, I just took a little time to wonder why no reviewer has mentioned anything, since I've read more than a few reviews of other games that indicate if there are major bugs or not.

rgds/EoE
 
Wodan said:
On some thread a couple of weeks ago a reviewer posted. The gist of it was that:

1) Reviewers have high powered machines (stands to reason). They also have professionally-built machines, rather than custom jobs (which tend to have idiosyncrasies). They have good components from top brands, rather than knock-offs or heavily-discounted older components.

2) Reviewers tend to give the game the benefit of the doubt in regard to bugs, because it is assumed and standard in the industry for a bug to be patched (how quickly is immaterial). A review is in hard copy, and no reviewer wants for his work to be "dated". Say he gives it a low grade because of a bug or two. Then, the company fixes the bugs. That review is now unrelated to the product as it stands, and this reflects upon the reviewer more than on the reviewed product.

3) Many so-called bugs are really related more to the user, rather than any lack of robustness on the part of the software.

Personally, I think any one of these reasons is enough.

Wodan

Personally, I think it's a bad review, if reviewers don't mention any serious bugs they encounter.

rgds/EoE
 
EoE said:
Personally, I think it's a bad review, if reviewers don't mention any serious bugs they encounter.

I agree. I also consider it a bad review if they mention bugs that they did not personally encounter.
 
EoE said:
Thanks, but my computer is updated, more than adequate and thoroughly tested (long sessions with memory testing and the whole enchilada). I fully expect that a future patch will enable me to run the game, which of course also means, that I am 100% convinced that the problem is with the game.

Have you sent Firaxis DxDiag logs? If not, then they have very little hope of finding your particular issue.
 
warpstorm said:
Have you sent Firaxis DxDiag logs? If not, then they have very little hope of finding your particular issue.

DxDiag, MSinfo, Windows Error report and the log files generated by Civ 4. All in a neat package. Along with a mention that Il2+FB+AEP 4.01m was plagued by the same bug, and that it got ironed out with the 4.02m patch.

Luckily CoD2 and BF2 can be played straight out of the box, and I suspect the same is true for my next purchase: GP Legends.

rgds/EoE
 
Try to apply your logic to ANY other product and let's see how valid it would be. And what exactly would make computer programs so totally different that regular market laws wouldn't apply to them?

The necessity to support a literally infinite number of possible hardware configurations while being by nature fragile and vulnerable to unknown conditions?

For the most part products you're going to reference will either be a) Less delicate/fragile than computer software -- i.e., much less prone to failure if something very small happens to change, or b) intended for a standardized platform whose behavior can be predicted and tested against.

E.g. think about blue ray discs. What would you say if they produced music on those and many people would hear strange noise when listening to it, and then some wiseguy pops up and declares: "You know, in today's world it becomes nearly impossible to have a blue ray disc working on all available blue ray disc players..." What would the very simple, but correct answer be?

An excellent example of why you're wrong. Blue Ray Disc players are a standardized technology. Regardless of their shiny case and the colored lights, they all use the same basic hardware and firmware routines to access this technology.

PCs, video cards, sound cards, motherboards, processors, etc.? Not so much standardized yet.
 
Luckily CoD2 and BF2 can be played straight out of the box, and I suspect the same is true for my next purchase: GP Legends.

That's pretty hilarious.

I bought Civilization IV and it runs like an absolute dream on my machine.

Battlefield 2? Locks up my entire system (requiring a HARD reboot). The most recent patch offered by EA doesn't resolve this problem. It's also a known issue that was noted during beat before the game was released and affects all users of a particularly popular chain of motherboards...


Perfect evidence that different hardware = different experience. Everyone arguging for Firaxis' incompetence in this thread is drawing so largely from your own experience, it's laughably egocentric.


Show me any kind of hard data on the number of customers experiencing these problems vs. those who have purchased the product and we'll have a serious conversation. Until then it's nothing but vacuuous, pointless moaning and complaining.

Thanks for playing.
 
Sorry for the triple-post, but... I'm really curious to know if anyone who is complaining about this title actually works in the industry?


I realize that statement comes off as sounding elitist, but the pure fact of the matter is until you have experienced this process from the inside you will never be truly appreciative of the number of factors that can affect the release of a piece of software intended to support so many various platforms.

Take for example the involvement of third parties -- the developers writing the drivers for people's sound cards, video cards, motherboards, etc.


What do you do, for instance, when you have completed development on your game and have thoroughly tested it on a variety of configurations. You're convinced of its stability and begin to stamp your first 2,000,000 CDs.

Between the time you have stamped the CDs and they're in boxes on the shelves, the maker of a particular video card releases a new firmware for their device which changes the way a particular API call works.

Suddenly now a functionality you relied on heavily during your development is less efficient, severely reducing the framerate and responsiveness of your game. Or maybe they added a bug to their API which causes the function not to work at all, breaking your game entirely on the machines of anyone who uses this video card...

What do you do? Well, you go back and rewrite the code to rely less on this API. Then you release a patch for users of this video card to install so their game will run as you intended it to (and as it would have had the video card manufacturer not gotten involved in the whole process).



Stuff like this happens all the time. When I say "all the time" it's because what I mean is that for all time that exists, stuff like this is happening.

Are you psychic? Would you be able to plan ahead and fix this bug before it exists?

Probably not.

Do you expect that Sid or the developers at Firaxis are psychic?

I doubt it.
 
EoE said:
All in a neat package.

Good. Then you've actually done your part in getting the technical problems solved.
 
Machete Phil said:
Try to apply your logic to ANY other product and let's see how valid it would be. And what exactly would make computer programs so totally different that regular market laws wouldn't apply to them?

The necessity to support a literally infinite number of possible hardware configurations while being by nature fragile and vulnerable to unknown conditions?

After the same logic no medicine would ever be sold because humans are immeasurably more complex and more varying than computers are. I guess we can tick off that pseudo-argument, can we?

Machete Phil said:
An excellent example of why you're wrong. Blue Ray Disc players are blabblabla...

An excellent example of that you are taking up exactly the wrong part of an analogy, fully ignoring that in my example I had the axiom that something went wrong (it is completely irrelevant how good blue ray discs indeed ARE). And, by the way, you don't know what you're talking about - we have problems even with CD and moreso with DVD burners in spite of years of standardization, so would you PLEASE stuff it. Have a look on incompatibility lists published in good PC magazines instead. Learn something.

Machete Phil said:
PCs, video cards, sound cards, motherboards, processors, etc.? Not so much standardized yet.

I really do not know who told you that you knew anything about computers - that guy must have been a jester indeed. I won't go into depth here but recommend a bit of lecture about IT standards, tolerances etc. ISA, EISA, SCSI, ATA and the like, just to name a few of the well known ones.

You know the quote "si tacuisses..."? Well.

Machete Phil said:
Show me any kind of hard data on the number of customers experiencing these problems vs. those who have purchased the product and we'll have a serious conversation. Until then it's nothing but vacuuous, pointless moaning and complaining.

Excellent. I allow myself to remind you that you have just judged your very own behaviour (in QUITE precise words, at that), since you, too, lack any "hard data" concerning how many people run CIV4 exactly the way it was promised and intended. Before you demand - deliver. I know you can't. So why posing as if you sat on hard facts facing a hilarious hypothesis?

I *love* people using cheap rhethoric tricks... so easy to dismantle, Mr. Vacuuous.
 
So I write a book in English. It will sell just as well to all the people that read English. Actual content will have nothing to do with it? Right...

Actual content doesn’t mean s*** if its in broken English no one can understand.

Besides, not one of those people pays a penny until the game ships. Meantime, you have to justify the costs. And you have to do it to people that make decisions, not that live in a fantasy world where a game manufacturer is expected to ramp up testing on an "expected hit" for no increase in price, then eat the same costs on the other titles.

Everyone knew Civ was going to be a major game, this wasn’t some type of gamble on the part of the company, they just plan cheeped out.

It doesn't cost $150 to make the game good enough, or even well. It does cost $150+ to make a game that will have the level of bugs being demanded by some of the people here. See the distinction there?

Not working for a large number of people is "good enough"?

Wow, will do well in the real world where good is only factored in once people can generally use the product. :rolleyes:
 
After the same logic no medicine would ever be sold because humans are immeasurably more complex and more varying than computers are. I guess we can tick off that pseudo-argument, can we?

No, no we can't. It's no an argument. It's a simple fact.

Once again you've done a great job defeating your own argument with your flawed analogy. Medicine does suffer the same headaches as computer software. Allergies, interactions, long- and short-term side effects, etc.

Many of these side effects and negative drug interactions aren't uncovered until after a drug has been FDA approved. Look at the rash of recent appetite control medicines that have caused heart diseases, or speculation into the involvement of antidepressants in the rise of violent outbursts among teenagers using these medicines.

Why do drug companies make these mistakes? Because no process of quality control can possibly test completely the infinite possibilities that are the human body.

Granted, Computers are an order of magnitude less complex than the human body, but then we're getting into specifics. Drug companies generally have a lot more money and time to get drugs to the market than game companies do software.

Nice try, though. (Sort of).

And, by the way, you don't know what you're talking about - we have problems even with CD and moreso with DVD burners in spite of years of standardization, so would you PLEASE stuff it. Have a look on incompatibility lists published in good PC magazines instead. Learn something.

Great. So if you have problems with hardware that is standardized imagine the headaches faced by people working on not just one but hundreds of technologies, each with their own (sometimes conflicting) standards. Welcome to large-scale software deployment captain know-it-all.

I really do not know who told you that you knew anything about computers - that guy must have been a jester indeed. I won't go into depth here but recommend a bit of lecture about IT standards, tolerances etc. ISA, EISA, SCSI, ATA and the like, just to name a few of the well known ones.

My degree and years of experience in the industry are of note. You can lecture me all you want about IT standards, EISA, SCSI, ATA, etc.

Then we will talk about how well they're implemented in the real world on actual hardware.

Then you can go back and read some more textbooks and journals and pretend that's how the world works.

Excellent. I allow myself to remind you that you have just judged your very own behaviour (in QUITE precise words, at that), since you, too, lack any "hard data" concerning how many people run CIV4 exactly the way it was promised and intended. Before you demand - deliver. I know you can't. So why posing as if you sat on hard facts facing a hilarious hypothesis?

Do you know how arguments work?

I'm not trying to prove anything. Therefore, it's not required I provide data. I'm not arguing that Civilization IV is not a buggy release. It may well be buggier than most. It may also be much less buggy than average. Until I (or you) see numbers, neither of us can argue in either direction.


My argument is more of a general condemnation of the notion that if a software developer must patch software after release that they have somehow failed or are "incompetent."

Until you can show me data which indicates that the release of Civilization IV is any more of a technological headache than any other modern game release, then the argument that Firaxis or Take2 have somehow done their customers a disservice is moot.


Prove some kind of negligence beyond the expected and inevitable bugs that developers must deal with both before and after release and we will have a conversation about that. Until then, you're doing nothing but whining about the fact that you are a PC Gamer, because all PC Gamers (and PC Game developers) must go through this unfortunate release/patch process.
 
Not working for a large number of people is "good enough"?

Wow, will do well in the real world where good is only factored in once people can generally use the product.

Define "large number of people."

Large in comparison to what?

1 in 10? 1 in 100? 1 in 1,000?


What's an acceptable rate of users having issues to you? 0%? Sorry, not happening.

Do you have some kind of evidence that the "large number" of users experience problems is any larger than with any other game released in recent memory?

Do you think your opinion of this particular product might be affected by the fact that you're one of the ones hit by the problem (if that's the case)?
 
Back
Top Bottom