What would you cut?

[subanark]

Cut down the number of magic spheres. Some of the schools are more popular than others, and trying to keep them balanced is very hard.

Some of the spells that belong to some of the spell schools should be added to others (that are kept in) which become available when you multiple mana nodes of that sphere. There doesn't seem to be a lot of incentive to build many of the same node.

Change the religions that were added to guilds (the ones from honor and deception techs). Allow their heroes to be built in cities with that guild (and a fast way for it to spread). The civs are fractured enough with respect to religions. Also remove the Membership civic; just have good civs be members of the over counsel and evil ones be members of the under counsel (neutral civs get penalized for being neutral). I have to try really hard to get other civs to adopt a membership.

Resistances to various elements should be removed (at least as trainable promotions). The magic resistance hits enough of the magic damage, we don't need overspecialization here.

 

[Seven05]

What would you guys remove?

Ok, you opened the can of worms

1. 'Basic' techs such as agriculture, mining, etc. Tech is slow, production is slow and growth is slow, having to wait 30-50 turns before you can do much of anything doesn't add much to the game.

2. Chariots, they feel horribly out of place in a fantasy game. Might be nice as a unique unit for the odd civ here and there but 'upgrading' from light cavalry to chariots just feels... wrong. Currently they're simply an upper level mounted unit, perhaps this progress could be better represented by making some promotions available, something simple like +x strength since most mounted units can't use the weapon promotions.

3. Excessive building/tech/resource requirments, especially those that aren't crystal clear in the game without having to search the pedia. In many cases replacing the resource requirement with a production bonus if you have the resource would make the game run much smoother, particularly with scarce resources like reagents. Overall many of the requirements could use some streamlining, in the case of units it feels like some of the requirements were added just because they could be added.

4. Free buildings from events, unless the events are one-shot deals. Events in general are a great additions, especially for a fantasy game, but getting what ammounts to a free forge and carnival in every (ok, most) cities feels a bit excessive. Having them appear well ahead of the technology that normally allows them is borderline game-breaking. Of course it's a great source of frustration when the RNG gods aren't in your favor and every other civ out there gets free forges but you never see a single one.

5. Wandering elephants. They either need to do something or go away, most often the only impact they have on the game is getting in the way of your early workers and settlers.

There's more, but the rest are really just nit-picking, those above are the big ones for me.

 

[Fenboy]

Also remove the Membership civic; just have good civs be members of the over counsel and evil ones be members of the under counsel (neutral civs get penalized for being neutral). I have to try really hard to get other civs to adopt a membership.

There are times when I really, really don't want to join the overcouncil; such as when I'm trying to avoid a war with my neighbour and the overcouncil decides it wants to dogpile them...except every other good civ is on another continent. It'd just be a pain to have wars I don't want pushed on me with next to no choice in the matter.

 

[Fenboy]

The unique art for the Lanun maceman and Infernal hunter are still found in the world editor (and presumably the game code) despite being replaced by the boarding party and hellhound respectively.

 

[odalrick]

Mobility.

Having it available to all units take away much of the value of Cavalry. Maybe keep it for Animals and Beasts; and Recon, but it should take magic to make infantry move faster and Cavalry are already fast enough.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Cut buildings, but be careful. Specialization of cities is important for this game.

Remove building requirements for units, meaning that as long as you have the technology you can build the unit, BUT, make the hammer cost much higher. Then, if you build the building, that unit type gets a large hammer discount and experience gain out of the gate.

As for techs that only enable national units, I would remove them, but add a SMALL level requirement for upgrading them, as well as requiring the building. Either that, or give significant bonuses to the generic units upon discovering the tech that enables the national unit. A tech and a seperate building just for national units is something I don't do.

As for spell system, I don't see how it can be simplified. Sure, if you want a simplification, the best way to do it is to require the mana node for both the arcane and the religious units just to learn the spells and/or to cast the learnt spells, none of the confusing "disciple units don't need the mana nodes". I would prefer that, but it's almost analogous to saying that the best way to make sure women and minorities should get equal wages for equal work is to lower those getting the higher wages.... right...

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Things mentioned that I agree with cutting:

- Elephants
- Crappy magic spheres (sun, dimensional, shadow). Don't TOUCH body or spirit though.
- Bowyers, Hippodromes, and Taverns. None of these add diversity, they're just redundant versions of earlier buildings. Inns are also a bit overpiced for what they do, keep their price the same but beef their effect a bit to make up for taverns being cut.
- Rings of Warding. Just... useless.
- Great Commanders as normal GPs. Give us BtS's GG mechanic!

Something yet unmentioned that I want gone:

- Units being unable to upgrade unless they're within the radius of a city with the prerequisite building. So lame. I like how normal Civ4 handles it; the units just need to be in your borders, connected to the right resource. Maybe make it so that there needs to be a prereq building somewhere in your empire.
- The pass through the ether tech. Don't bother moving the building and wonder it enables, just axe that crap along with dimensional mana.

Things mentioned that I'd really rather keep:

- The summoning branch
- Privateers
- Mage Guilds (adepts are so important as to need to be attached to their own building, not one that already boosts science)
- Traditional siege units
- The new religions
- The membership civics
- National unit techs (those units are GOOD, and worth a their own tech + building)

 

[Verdian]

1) Elephants. The problem with elephants is that no one can kill them until late game, so they tend to pile up. Limit the max amount, or lower their power.

2) Magic should be combined into one path, with the summoning section (elemental, necromancy) having sorcery at tier 2, and summoning at tier 3. Reverse that for the sorcery section. Or just make summoning a smaller branch tech off of sorcery.

3) There are too many types of ships that are redundant, due to the promotions they can swap in and out for free. Have one type of ship per tech level. Sailing gets coast only ships, optics gets normal ships that can enter the ocean, and astronomy gives access to the specialty ships that shoot fire balls and require gun powder. Make one of the changeable promotions grant the "explore enemy territory" ability at the cost of strength and/or carry capacity. If this makes astronomy too weak, have it open up a building that increases all ship strength in some way.

4) Cut the Honor and Deception requirement for joining the Under and Overcouncil. Make it way of the wise or way of the wicked.

Also, I don't agree that buildings should be cut. I like the idea of making them cheaper, to put more emphasis on units.

 

[mtagge]

Things mentioned that I agree with cutting:

- Elephants
- Crappy magic spheres (sun, dimensional, shadow). Don't TOUCH body or spirit though.
- Bowyers, Hippodromes, and Taverns. None of these add diversity, they're just redundant versions of earlier buildings. Inns are also a bit overpiced for what they do, keep their price the same but beef their effect a bit to make up for taverns being cut.
- Rings of Warding. Just... useless.
- Great Commanders as normal GPs. Give us BtS's GG mechanic!

Something yet unmentioned that I want gone:

- Units being unable to upgrade unless they're within the radius of a city with the prerequisite building. So lame. I like how normal Civ4 handles it; the units just need to be in your borders, connected to the right resource. Maybe make it so that there needs to be a prereq building somewhere in your empire.
- The pass through the ether tech. Don't bother moving the building and wonder it enables, just axe that crap along with dimensional mana.

Things mentioned that I'd really rather keep:

- The summoning branch
- Privateers
- Mage Guilds (adepts are so important as to need to be attached to their own building, not one that already boosts science)
- Traditional siege units
- The new religions
- The membership civics
- National unit techs (those units are GOOD, and worth a their own tech + building)

I pretty much agree with MonkeyFinger with a few caveats. Axe the GCs and give us GGs, but have the palaces modify the GG emergence so that the warmonger civ's will get a penalty to production. Definately cut one sphere of magic from each tech. Many of them are worthless unless going for a tower of mastery win, then they are just annoying.

Also axe the Poisons tech for getting Assasins. That tech is always an afterthough for me that when I get it it is just because it takes 1-2 turns to research.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Definately cut one sphere of magic from each tech.

Like the idea, but doing this to elementalism would be hard. All the elemental spheres are good. The worst one, IMO, is earth, and that one's still around the middle of the entire sphere list, I think.

 

[Vehem]

Domesticate Elephants.

Rework the mechanic as War Elephants "can only be upgraded from Elephants". Strength reduction to be more in-line with Champion level units and allowed to use Weapons - no longer national. 25% or 50% Bonus against cavalry and melee line units (also adds benefit to the archery line as they aren't susceptible - if you've got to kill an elephant, you're better off shooting it than charging at it)

City Garrison promotions - move TechPrereq for CG1 to Archery. Keep CG2 and 3 requiring Warfare.
Defensive Promotion - Promotion Prereqs either Combat 4 or CG1

 

[Gigaz]

Please lower the speed of some cavalry units and disable the mobility-promotion. And please change the raider-trait, commando is much too strong for a start promotion. It is really awful when the AI can take every worker ok mine in a range of 15 tiles. And it is even worse when you play FFH in multiplayer.

 

[Pocus]

Remove:

Elephants

The desert effect of Blight -- yes, until the AI can cope with it, you are mostly crippling the AI and the player will have recovered in 10 turns or less. Beside, you force every player to get water mana. Remove 25% of the population to compensate, the AI will recover faster than the player even! / Have the fire spread less, it is a PITA, for both the AI (which understand nothing of what is happening and the player too - I have Adept called Fire Brigade in all my games. Boring)

2-3 magic paths.

2-3 summons.

Ring of Warding

Some civics, barely used IMHO, or merge them.

The rest is ok, part of the charm of FFH2, to have a world of features to discover.

Do not remove Ether gate. It reduces MM in the end game.

 

[Humakty]

I do like the flame effects when something is burning, but the ever burning hell sands really kill my computer. Makes me wander through the world with water adepts, preemptively turning deserts to plains... (I know I shouldn't play on large maps, but smaller maps seem really too small)

 

[thewyrm]

I agree that the plains turning into deserts effect of blight needs to be re-worked. The AI simply keeps all the desert, and it pretty much forces you to always have water mana. How about all farms and plantations are destroyed, with a chance that the resources vanish forever, as well as a significant population loss in all cities?

Or, is there a way for the deserts to slowly turn back into plains on their own? Sort of like the end of winter feature?

 

[woodelf]

I'd cut Forts. They've never become what we envisioned.

 

[TheJopa]

Don't cut magic spheres please.

I'd redesign mounted branch. That means cut chariots - they would remain as Ratha unit and UU for Dwarves and mybe some other civs.
Horsemen would upgrade to light and heavy cavalry. Light Cavalry would upgrade to horse archer, heavy cavalry to knights.
Elephants would be out of the upgrade tree, tier 4 unit you would have to build or upgrade from captured elephant. Or just cut elephants if you really want to cut.
It would make more sense this way. Light cavalry would have 1st strikes, higher withdrawal rate, be cheaper, generally useful for pillaging and softening. Horse archer would be even more of all of this, and have 1st strike immunity. Heavy cavalry would be strong, knight maybe strongest T4 unit, and have less withdrawal and no 1st strike. Maybe movement reduced 3->2.
And Chariots would remain as dwarven Light cavalry replacement and as Ratha.

 

[schlalex]

i would love to see the number of beakers for the advanced techs in the lategame to be increased. So that even for big economies it would be difficult to research all later techs alone. That would give the game much more flavour. Since after the age of ice, the nations are rebuilding civilization, so they should not be able to develop from barbarism to advanced and cultured nations without a lot of sharing their wisdom.

I wont recommend to cut any units/buildings. Its the pure number enjoying me. Though maybe u could increase the AIs ability to make use of these.

 

[slowcar]

- elephants
- put sorcery and summoning together tech-wise (you can still allow an adept to upgrade to either)
- reduce the mana types and spell spheres
- remove poison-techs
- remove buildings used as prerequisite only (especially as the AI is too dumb to buidl them)
- cut down ship types

 

[Sarisin]

Dump this current lot of raging barbarians and bring us back the ones we knew several versions ago!

They have become too civilized and intent on settling down in their cities which spread like wildfire allover the maps.

Specifically,

1. No more building of Wonders for barbarians. If they must build, let them build more units instead of the FORBIDDEN PALACE or whatever.

2. No more Great People for barbarians. They only use them (mostly talking Great Commanders here) for creating Golden Ages, which leads me to

3. No more Golden Ages for barbarians. It just doesn't make sense and why on earth would they need the benefits a Golden Age brings? Another thread mentioned letting them pop a strong barb hero now and then instead of Great People.

4. No more squatting. The AI now seems to be more into a defend their city mode rather than a raging barb mode. It is not uncommon to see large numbers of barbs just squatting in their cities rather than going out to attack and pillage.

5. No more guard duty for barbs on goodie huts and bear lairs. Again, they should be marauding, not guarding. Nothing is more absurd than finding Orthus guarding a bear lair.

6. Make them raze every city they take instead of capturing every city they take now. That is much more barbarian-like. They get enough cities with Barbarian World and the rapid-fire spawning of barb cities that goes on. As a side note: no more affect on the AC when barb cities are razed!

7. Let the barbs appear earlier like they did before. In the new version it seems like it is a long time (usually 200 turns on Epic) before the barbs appear. This gives the ai an awfully long time to fill up the map and push the barbs off the map. There is no room left for raging barbs.

A couple of more non-barb related:

1. Figure out some way to slow down the expand first, defend later mentality of the ai. The ai seems to think there are no such things as maintenance costs and research is fine at 10%. Yes, I know the No Settler option works for this, but I would just like to see more of a defender behavior for the ai. Slow down ai expansion.

2. Don't let the animals disappear so fast. After the barbs appear you will see only bears and elephants unless you build Nature's Revolt. Wouldn't it be neat to see a wandering Tiger, Wolf, Lion or Gorilla MID-GAME? Maybe bring back wolf/lion dens and something that would spawn tigers and gorillas.

3. Not an FFH2 problem, I guess, but either allow the player to redline techs, resources, declaring war on others, etc. or take this away from the ai civs. Likewise, allow the player to demand something other than gold...just like the ai can do.

4. Allow the player to get rid of hell terrain permanently somehow. I know there are a couple of obscure ways to do this, but, basically, once Hyborem lands, hell terrain is here to stay even if you dispatch him quickly.

5. Allow the player to play both Basium and his old civ when he builds the Mercurian gate or improve the horrible ally AI.

Please understand these are in no way complaints. You guys have created the best game ever and, in just asking the question in this thread, it shows what an outstanding attitude you have and how you care about the views of the players!

Good show!