When certain techs 'hide' themselves

[Jamesds]

Sometimes, when I research, I want to discover Refining (just for example) and it takes a couple of discoveries before I can actually research it.
I have all the prerequisites, but it still doesn't come up in the box. Is this supposed to happen?
Usually every time the research box comes up, there are a few techs which are 'hidden'. Not because I don't have the prerequisites, just because they don't want to show! (For some reason) And is there a way of avoiding it?

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

The best thing to do is go to the search page and look for "oedo's unfinished". These threads should contain a link to a thread on Apolyton that explains when it happens.

Basically, techs are removed from the list once every three techs you acquire during the game. There are exceptions but that is the basic pattern.

The way to "avoid" it is to use your knowledge of the pattern to predict when a tech will and will not be available to order your research and possibly time your acquisition of other techs (via trading, stealing, etc.) so that you manipulate the techs which are available. The threads you get in the search above should contain a link to an app by SlowThinker (iirc) that will help plan your techs. I couldn't get his app to work so I wrote a spreadsheet that helps me determine when things are available, but I never finished polishing it up to distribute to others.

The other thing you can do is play the game as a scenario. You can select any tech you have the prerequisites for in a scenario -none are withheld from the list you select from.

 

[starlifter]

Coincidentally, we were just having a related discussion in the Democracy II game.

Anyway, Oedo and Slow Thinker figured & refined the details. Here is a link.

Tech availability is basically for 2 of 3 times, based on the order of the techs in the rules.txt file. The first tech (alphabetically) is always available, even if it would normally be hidden. I simply group the techs into 3 piles... A, B, and C. Then follow the pattern each time you get to choose and advance. You adjust the pattern based on the extra techs you have, or that you discover via huts & swapping.

Oedo also discoverd the Oedo year pattern of xxxoxxxoxxxoxxxo for coming out of Anarchy after a revolution or gov't change. The science pattern is ooxooxoox.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by starlifter
The first tech (alphabetically) is always available, even if it would normally be hidden.

If you want to be really picky, I don't think it is strictly alphabetical based on the name of the tech or its 3 character abbreviation. It is based on the order the techs show up in your rules.txt file. For the most part, this list is alphabetical, but there are minor exceptions.

Specifically techs that start with the word "The" are sorted as if the "The" wasn't there. E.g. "The Laser" is sorted with the L's and not with the T's. The 3 character abbreviations are way off, so you can't do it alphabetically based on them either. consider the following section:

Labor Union - Lab
The Laser - Las
Leadership - Ldr
Literacy - Lit
Machine Tools - Too
Magnetism - Mag
Map Making - Map
Masonry - Mas
Mass Production MP
Mathematics - Mat

Labor Union, Literacy, Map Making, Mathematics are part of one group
The Laser, Machine Tools, Masonry are part of another group
and Leadership, Magnetism, and Mass Production are part of the third group

 

[starlifter]

Thanks for the example, Tim! The order & gropings are indeed based on the rules.txt entries. You can shuffle them around and it will pick "new" groupings. Note that Plumbing (a tech that we usually don't activate) is in the rotation.

 

[starlifter]

For easy reference by all, here is the Advances section from the rules.txt in MGE:

;   Civilization Advances
;
;   Ai Value, Civilized Modifier, Preq1, Preq2, Epoch, Category
;
;     Ai Value = Basic value at which computer players
;                view this advance (used in determining
;                which discovery to pursue, which to
;                acquire during exchanges, and value of
;                gift during diplomacy).
;     Modifier = Modifier to value based on the "civilized"
;                aspect of a leader's personality.  Positive
;                values increase value for civilized leaders,
;                decrease it for militaristic.  Negative
;                values vice versa.
;     preq1, preq2 = Prerequisites
;
;     Epoch = historical period
;             0 = Ancient
;             1 = Renaissance
;             2 = Industrial Revolution
;             3 = Modern
;
;     Category = Knowledge category
;             0 = Military
;             1 = Economic
;             2 = Social
;             3 = Academic
;             4 = Applied
;
@CIVILIZE
Advanced Flight,    4,-2,  Rad, Too, 3, 4    ; AFl
Alphabet,           5, 1,  nil, nil, 0, 3    ; Alp
Amphibious Warfare, 3,-2,  Nav, Tac, 3, 0    ; Amp
Astronomy,          4, 1,  Mys, Mat, 1, 3    ; Ast
Atomic Theory,      4,-1,  ToG, Phy, 2, 3    ; Ato
Automobile,         6,-1,  Cmb, Stl, 3, 4    ; Aut
Banking,            4, 1,  Tra, Rep, 1, 1    ; Ban
Bridge Building,    4, 0,  Iro, Cst, 0, 4    ; Bri
Bronze Working,     6,-1,  nil, nil, 0, 4    ; Bro
Ceremonial Burial,  5, 0,  nil, nil, 0, 2    ; Cer
Chemistry,          5,-1,  Uni, Med, 1, 3    ; Che
Chivalry,           4,-2,  Feu, Hor, 1, 0    ; Chi
Code of Laws,       4, 1,  Alp, nil, 0, 2    ; CoL
Combined Arms,      5,-1,  Mob, AFl, 3, 0    ; CA
Combustion,         5,-1,  Ref, Exp, 2, 4    ; Cmb
Communism,          5, 0,  Phi, Ind, 2, 2    ; Cmn
Computers,          4, 1,  Min, MP,  3, 4    ; Cmp
Conscription,       7,-1,  Dem, Met, 2, 0    ; Csc
Construction,       4, 0,  Mas, Cur, 0, 4    ; Cst
The Corporation,    4, 0,  Ind, Eco, 2, 1    ; Cor
Currency,           4, 1,  Bro, nil, 0, 1    ; Cur
Democracy,          5, 1,  Ban, Inv, 2, 2    ; Dem
Economics,          4, 1,  Uni, Ban, 2, 1    ; Eco
Electricity,        4, 0,  Met, Mag, 2, 4    ; E1
Electronics,        4, 1,  E1,  Cor, 3, 4    ; E2
Engineering,        4, 0,  Whe, Cst, 0, 4    ; Eng
Environmentalism,   3, 1,  Rec, SFl, 3, 2    ; Env
Espionage,          2,-1,  Cmn, Dem, 3, 0    ; Esp
Explosives,         5, 0,  Gun, Che, 2, 4    ; Exp
Feudalism,          4,-1,  War, Mon, 0, 0    ; Feu
Flight,             4,-1,  Cmb, ToG, 2, 4    ; Fli
Fundamentalism,     3,-2,  MT,  Csc, 2, 2    ; Fun
Fusion Power,       3, 0,  NP,  Sup, 3, 3    ; FP
Genetic Engineering,3, 2,  Med, Cor, 3, 3    ; Gen
Guerrilla Warfare,  4, 1,  Cmn, Tac, 3, 0    ; Gue
Gunpowder,          8,-2,  Inv, Iro, 1, 0    ; Gun
Horseback Riding,   4,-1,  nil, nil, 0, 0    ; Hor
Industrialization,  6, 0,  RR,  Ban, 2, 1    ; Ind
Invention,          6, 0,  Eng, Lit, 1, 4    ; Inv
Iron Working,       5,-1,  Bro, War, 0, 4    ; Iro
Labor Union,        4,-1,  MP,  Gue, 3, 2    ; Lab
The Laser,          4, 0,  NP,  MP,  3, 3    ; Las
Leadership,         5,-1,  Chi, Gun, 1, 0    ; Ldr
Literacy,           5, 2,  Wri, CoL, 0, 3    ; Lit
Machine Tools,      4,-2,  Stl, Tac, 2, 4    ; Too
Magnetism,          4,-1,  Phy, Iro, 1, 3    ; Mag
Map Making,         6,-1,  Alp, nil, 0, 1    ; Map
Masonry,            4, 1,  nil, nil, 0, 4    ; Mas
Mass Production,    5, 0,  Aut, Cor, 3, 4    ; MP
Mathematics,        4,-1,  Alp, Mas, 0, 3    ; Mat
Medicine,           4, 0,  Phi, Tra, 1, 1    ; Med
Metallurgy,         6,-2,  Gun, Uni, 1, 0    ; Met
Miniaturization,    4, 1,  Too, E2,  3, 4    ; Min
Mobile Warfare,     8,-1,  Aut, Tac, 3, 0    ; Mob
Monarchy,           5, 1,  Cer, CoL, 0, 2    ; Mon
Monotheism,         5, 1,  Phi, PT,  1, 2    ; MT
Mysticism,          4, 0,  Cer, nil, 0, 2    ; Mys
Navigation,         6,-1,  Sea, Ast, 1, 1    ; Nav
Nuclear Fission,    6,-2,  Ato, MP,  3, 3    ; NF
Nuclear Power,      3, 0,  NF,  E2,  3, 3    ; NP
Philosophy,         6, 1,  Mys, Lit, 1, 2    ; Phi
Physics,            4,-1,  Nav, Lit, 1, 3    ; Phy
Plastics,           4, 1,  Ref, SFl, 3, 4    ; Pla
Plumbing,           4, 0,  no,  no,  1, 4    ; Plu  (Cst & Pot)
Polytheism,         4, 0,  Cer, Hor, 0, 2    ; PT
Pottery,            4, 1,  nil, nil, 0, 1    ; Pot
Radio,              5,-1,  Fli, E1,  3, 4    ; Rad
Railroad,           6, 0,  SE, Bri,  2, 1    ; RR
Recycling,          2, 1,  MP, Dem,  3, 2    ; Rec
Refining,           4, 0,  Che, Cor, 2, 4    ; Ref
Refrigeration,      3, 1,  E1,  San, 3, 1    ; Rfg
The Republic,       5, 1,  CoL, Lit, 0, 2    ; Rep
Robotics,           5,-2,  Cmp, Mob, 3, 0    ; Rob
Rocketry,           6,-2,  AFl, E2,  3, 0    ; Roc
Sanitation,         4, 2,  Med, Eng, 2, 1    ; San
Seafaring,          4, 1,  Map, Pot, 0, 1    ; Sea
Space Flight,       4, 1,  Cmp, Roc, 3, 3    ; SFl
Stealth,            3,-2,  Sup, Rob, 3, 0    ; Sth
Steam Engine,       4,-1,  Phy, Inv, 2, 3    ; SE
Steel,              4,-1,  E1,  Ind, 2, 4    ; Stl
Superconductor,     4, 1,  Pla, Las, 3, 3    ; Sup
Tactics,            6,-1,  Csc, Ldr, 2, 0    ; Tac
Theology,           3, 2,  MT,  Feu, 1, 2    ; The
Theory of Gravity,  4, 0,  Ast, Uni, 1, 3    ; ToG
Trade,              4, 2,  Cur, CoL, 0, 1    ; Tra
University,         5, 1,  Mat, Phi, 1, 3    ; Uni
Warrior Code,       4,-1,  nil, nil, 0, 0    ; War
The Wheel,          4,-1,  Hor, nil, 0, 4    ; Whe
Writing,            4, 2,  Alp, nil, 0, 3    ; Wri
Future Technology,  1, 0,  FP,  Rec, 3, 3    ; ...
User Def Tech A,    3, 0,  no,  no,  0, 0    ; U1
User Def Tech B,    3, 0,  no,  no,  0, 0    ; U2
User Def Tech C,    3, 0,  no,  no,  0, 0    ; U3
Extra Advance 1,    3, 0,  no,  no,  0, 0    ; X1
Extra Advance 2,    3, 0,  no,  no,  0, 0    ; X2
Extra Advance 3,    3, 0,  no,  no,  0, 0    ; X3
Extra Advance 4,    3, 0,  no,  no,  0, 0    ; X4
Extra Advance 5,    3, 0,  no,  no,  0, 0    ; X5
Extra Advance 6,    3, 0,  no,  no,  0, 0    ; X6
Extra Advance 7,    3, 0,  no,  no,  0, 0    ; X7

 

[Jamesds]

Thanks, I read some of Odeo's unfinished, it was interesting, especially the formula. Thanks you two!