When to build settlers

[nimling]

After reading on here how important NC is, I've been trying to shoot for getting NC as soon as I can in games where I can build the Great Library, which usually means OCC until I get NC.

The question then is, when should I expand my number of cities, assuming I don't pick Liberty at any point? I often wind up waiting for a long time to build my second city, sometimes around turn 70-80 or longer before the city is plopped in place. This can be really bad if I'm next to an expansive AI, and it winds up taking a long time to get those cities producing anything. At the same time, I find I have a lot of things to build (caravans/cargo ships in particular, workers, markets when they are available) that give better short-term rewards, but if I wait too long all of the good settle locations are blocked off.

Difficulty is Emperor if it makes any difference.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

First off NC is not very important to get early on, nice but not very important.
Sometimes its better to try to get alot of land under your controll, because in the end population will bring in more science then NC will.

Getting NC a bit slower and more Cities is probably a better choice then to get NC faster and lose some city spots.

 

[joncnunn]

Getting NC a bit slower and more Cities is probably a better choice then to get NC faster and lose some city spots.

Disagree, just conquer the city spot the AI took that you wanted. This is even better since as a puppet it won't require you to build a full set of buildings for national wonders which it would if you self founded it.
Also, since the AI loves to send settlers without escorts, you can turn the AIs settlers into your workers by having a few military units near where you plan your future cities.

 

[nimling]

Disagree, just conquer the city spot the AI took that you wanted. This is even better since as a puppet it won't require you to build a full set of buildings for national wonders which it would if you self founded it.
Also, since the AI loves to send settlers without escorts, you can turn the AIs settlers into your workers by having a few military units near where you plan your future cities.

Sometimes this works, sometimes not. I often do not have a few military units that are not out scouting new territory, and short of capturing the settler before they land, it means i will have to contend with that city for a lot longer especially if it's a hill city.

I have taken CS early when it suits me (for what it's worth I rarely use the exploit of stealing a CS worker, unless I want the CS location in the first place).

 

[direblade99]

Build at least one city before NC at around turn 40 or 50 maybe. It actually helps you tech faster towards NC.

 

[Memoryjar]

If you build GL, build Oracle before NC.

 

[Amagius]

As soon as the capital can build a settler without that building process greatly inhibiting its growth.

The land around the capital will strongly influence the city size at which it's optimal [to build a Settler], but a baseline recommendation may be growing to size 5. Likely want to start before turn 50 (Standard), but it's relative too.

If you'll need Bronze Working, Masonry, and Calendar to get anything at all done, allowing a weak capital (i.e. a slow-growing capital) to build a Settler will give you time to research further technologies / improve land. Conversely, if the population is steadily growing every few turns (<10), and the next citizen will grab a significant tile, you may want to hold off. Eventually, the capital will taper out of greater tiles to use and begin a slower growth.

Agree with joncnunn&#8212;I'd rather conquer an (albeit poorly placed) AI city than dedicate resources to a Settler / suffer the diplomatic consequences of settling towards people. On rapid expansion: strike while the iron is hot... but then again, you shouldn't be making swords during wartime.

Also, if I go Liberty, I do usually wait for Collective Rule before building a settler (assuming I found a culture ruin), but frankly, it's only for economy's sake. I'm not sure if it is [always] the right play.

 

[phillipwyllie]

Depending on the location of your subsequent cities they can build a library in a reasonable time so you can get the NC out before t90. If there are prime spots then I'd build settlers first. If you have the GL then the NC hyper early isn't needed as much if you hadn't. Chop all forest to make things happen even faster.

On a side note about chopping forest, forest on features(say deer) you should chop. Until yesterday it didn't occur to me you could do that.........

 

[dinanipedro]

when i go for GL, my tactics is buy one and build one after NC

 

[tommynt]

asap
usually u should buy/build settler between turn 30 and 60, and never build a city past turn 90.

Or let me put it different - never build a city past 1/3 of your targeted finish time.

I target turn 200 so i try not to build cityies after turn 65
if u target turn 300 getting them up before turn 100 is still ok

 

[dinanipedro]

i have to agree with tommynt, but not everyone can target t200 ) but after t90 no point as it is a bit late

 

[Memoryjar]

Emperor T100 is a good limit. NCT110-120 is late, but doesn't really avoid to win around T350.

 

[Andy06r]

Can you explain the "No cities after turn X" further. What if I find a good colony with unique luxuries, or a spot I wanted all along but couldn't afford the happiness hit. Why wouldn't I want to expand to that city after civil service or astronomy, especially with internal trade routes?

 

[Browd]

The main issues are the opportunity costs associated with diverting resources to get the new city up to speed and able to make a meaningful contribution. In most cases, there are better uses for those hammers and trade routes, even before you take into account the marginal effects of increased social policy and tech costs.

 

[droberts97470]

What does NC stand for?

 

[Browd]

National College

 

[chazzycat]

I would rather have more cities than slightly earlier NC in most situations. As long as these cities have enough happiness to keep growing fast with those tradition bonuses, they will catch up in beakers compared to earlier NC, pretty quickly.

typically my opener would look something like this (assuming tradition):

1st city - grow to ideal size to work good available production tiles while building scouts, monument, worker, shrine & granny (not necessarily all of them or in that order) then switch to settlers (and micro to production tiles)
2nd city - monument archer library
3rd city - monument library archer
4th city - library monument archer

it's just a rough guideline but staggering the libraries that way helps them finish around the same time to start on NC. Obviously you have to adjust based on your actual cities output. having enough workers to improve tiles so they can build libraries fast is also key...that's why I don't like buying libraries, especially if I can't steal a worker, I'll spend my first 620 gold on 2 workers.

 

[budweiser]

I disagree. I like to keep just 2 or 3 tall cities until my Hermitage is up, then I like to expand more.

I almost never build, but instead buy them.

 

[adwcta]

I disagree. I like to keep just 2 or 3 tall cities until my Hermitage is up, then I like to expand more.

I almost never build, but instead buy them.

Same, I do 3.

Also, disagree with tommynt about founding cities after turn 100. Between food routes and late game gold, your opportunity cost between founding a city and not founding an extra city may very well tilt toward making an extra city. This is especially true if you start Liberty and/or have a culture generation per city unique or religion. The key is to have Hermitage up before you expand your second wave and to not treat those new cities like your initial primary cities. The new cities will give more gold (city connections), more faith, and one of science, military units, more gold, or tourism.

It's a hassle to play, but the benefits are mathematically real as long as you have the happiness to support it (which you usually get once you get ideologies, so I set up the new cities and don't grow them until the ideology happiness triggers).

This is even more true when founding a 4th city for tradition, if you prefer to open 3 cities.

 

[kb27787]

@ppl disagreeing with the guy who wins under 200 turns;
actually this question would depend on how fast you can win.
If you can play like him, then I think the game is over before the extra city gets to consolidate itself.

Myself, I have to agree; it is very rare on standard deity to have a good spot open and isolated after 100 turns anyway (and I consider myself a late expander! but immortal and below where there are only half the number of cities I think it's OK). Anyway the new city (which would more likely than not be closer to AIs and cause them to covet your lands) could be just a hassle to protect even if it did pay off for itself in terms of science but it might get you involved in a war that, say, costs you your trade routes or CS friends or hammers building troops and whatnot. Being greedy can land you into centuries of trouble.