When to use slavery?
- Thread starter scotchex
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Paeanblack
Prince
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- Dec 4, 2001
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NFIH said:
You can't actually build more than one item per turn, but you can finish the progress bar of several items in the same turn with rushing or chopping.
Actually I think your method of whipping a first settler does have merit because it actually is faster. Its especially useful if you' find that bronze is near your first targets capital. What could be better than stealing his bronze city and having axemen being built that much closer to his capital?InFlux5 said:
I find Andrei's method to be silly though as its 6 turns slower than conventional building, and 12 slower than your two chop/whip strategy. The only benefit he's been able to put forth is that you have a granary in your capital very early. But in the 6 turns you lose with his method you can just build a granary after your settler. Thus you can take his then described method for when he has two cities but you start your second city 6 turns early. Meanwhile your capital will reach the exact same state around the same year, depending on when exactly you whip the granary. Making his starting build order strictly inferior.
Strat 1. Pottery and Granary first.
I set to Worker, research Hunting -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Bronze Working -> Agriculture -> Mysticism -> Animal Husbandry -> Writing -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws.
Worker is done, set to Warrior, build the camp, then pe-build a road for 1 turn, on the next turn Pottery, change to cottages until BW. When the Warrior is done, switch to Granary and chop a forest, then whip for 1 pop down to size 2.
Now use overflow to build another Warrior, then switch to Barracks until size 4 (working the camp and 3 cottages). Switch to Settler, chop another forest and whip after a while for 2 pop.
Use overflow towards a Worker, but switch to Barracks again until size 4, then whip.
The first worker builds a road towards the second city spot. It's relatively close, has Copper, Cow, Wheat, Corn, Gems, Stone, but only Cow and Wheat are accessible before border expansion, so Obelisk.
The city is founded in 2120 BC (turn 47). Send both Workers to develop cow and wheat. AH reveals horses also in the fat cross, but accessible after border expansion.
The capital finishes barracks at size 4, switch to Settler (already at happiness cap), whip for 2 pop, build the third city. Use overflow for a Chariot. Also rush a couple of Chariots in the second city, then switch to an Axe.
1000 BC - Confucianism. 3 cities, 4, 4, 1. Units: 2 Warriors, 3 Chariots, 2 Workers. 2 forests chopped down.
I set to Worker, research Hunting -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Bronze Working -> Agriculture -> Mysticism -> Animal Husbandry -> Writing -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws.
Worker is done, set to Warrior, build the camp, then pe-build a road for 1 turn, on the next turn Pottery, change to cottages until BW. When the Warrior is done, switch to Granary and chop a forest, then whip for 1 pop down to size 2.
Now use overflow to build another Warrior, then switch to Barracks until size 4 (working the camp and 3 cottages). Switch to Settler, chop another forest and whip after a while for 2 pop.
Use overflow towards a Worker, but switch to Barracks again until size 4, then whip.
The first worker builds a road towards the second city spot. It's relatively close, has Copper, Cow, Wheat, Corn, Gems, Stone, but only Cow and Wheat are accessible before border expansion, so Obelisk.
The city is founded in 2120 BC (turn 47). Send both Workers to develop cow and wheat. AH reveals horses also in the fat cross, but accessible after border expansion.
The capital finishes barracks at size 4, switch to Settler (already at happiness cap), whip for 2 pop, build the third city. Use overflow for a Chariot. Also rush a couple of Chariots in the second city, then switch to an Axe.
1000 BC - Confucianism. 3 cities, 4, 4, 1. Units: 2 Warriors, 3 Chariots, 2 Workers. 2 forests chopped down.
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Strat 2. BW first, chop 3 forests for the first Settler, then whip. Then whip another Worker.
Tech path: Hunting -> BW -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Mysticism -> Agriculture -> AH -> Writing -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws.
So, build the camp first for +3 improved bonus, then use the trick with swapping build queue from Settler to Warrior, chop 3 forests for 60 hammers, then build normally when at size 3 until 70+ hammers, then whip for 1 pop. Use overflow towards the second Worker, wait until 30+ hammers, whip the Worker for 1 pop down to 1 (only 1 improved tile so far anyways).
Now switch to Granary, build the second city, the rest more or less the same. Build cottages with one Worker, connect with the other, then improve Wheat and Cow until border expand, then both Copper and Horses with both workers.
The second city founded 2560 BC (turn 36), that is, 11 turns earlier. I'm not sure if I follow the suggested strat, so it's 11, not 12.
However, by the year 1000BC I am 5 turns away from CoL, but I have 1 Worker more and a little ahead in worker turns, the rest is about the same: 3 cities 4, 4, 1, 3 Chariots, 2 Warriors, 3 Workers.
3 forests have been chopped down.
Tech path: Hunting -> BW -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Mysticism -> Agriculture -> AH -> Writing -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws.
So, build the camp first for +3 improved bonus, then use the trick with swapping build queue from Settler to Warrior, chop 3 forests for 60 hammers, then build normally when at size 3 until 70+ hammers, then whip for 1 pop. Use overflow towards the second Worker, wait until 30+ hammers, whip the Worker for 1 pop down to 1 (only 1 improved tile so far anyways).
Now switch to Granary, build the second city, the rest more or less the same. Build cottages with one Worker, connect with the other, then improve Wheat and Cow until border expand, then both Copper and Horses with both workers.
The second city founded 2560 BC (turn 36), that is, 11 turns earlier. I'm not sure if I follow the suggested strat, so it's 11, not 12.
However, by the year 1000BC I am 5 turns away from CoL, but I have 1 Worker more and a little ahead in worker turns, the rest is about the same: 3 cities 4, 4, 1, 3 Chariots, 2 Warriors, 3 Workers.
3 forests have been chopped down.
Attachments
Done.cabert said:now try strat 2
Well, it's not at all uncommon. With a better start I believe my strat would work even better, since I can save more turns working cottages instead of farms. On the other hand, with a lower food it would not work as good.cabert said:
So, despite buildind the second city a lot earlier, and working that Gems mine more turns, too, I am still a way behind in tech.
Now, what if I did not find any Copper nearby? Should I have wasted a lot more turns on researching IW with my commerce and science a way behind?
Now, what if I did not find any Copper nearby? Should I have wasted a lot more turns on researching IW with my commerce and science a way behind?
Andrei_V said:
well, i never had such a poor start (and i never regenerate the map!)
I always count on at least 3 ressources in the initial fat cross.
I see only one. That's not much!
Obviously you will have some iron/aluminium/oil/coal/uranium in the fat cross when you reach the right techs...
Well, this thread has advanced beyond my initial simple question. but I thought I'd post a quick follow-up. I played an all-slavery game the other day and finally figured out (sort of) how to use slavery (at least inthe beginning/mid-game).
My problem was that I was using citizen automation, which seems to always go for balanced growth/production/beakers/gold. So my cities only ever had a food surplus of 2 or 3.
I was reading the slavery articles where somebody would say they would whip 5 pop and have it grow back by the end of 10 turns ... and it seemed unbelievable. Well, I still used citizen automation, but I maximized food, built farms on flood plains, and soon had massive food supluses -- on the order of 10-15 at times.
I know this is obvious to you guys, but it took me a week to realize my newbie mistake. I'd been using slavery to turn a slow growing 7 city to a slow growing 4 city -- which is not the recommended technique I imagine.
Anyway, I played a quick duel on noble that way and managed a 1946 space victory. Pretty much every city was all food and constant slavery. I was whipping every couple turns on some cities. I hit a wall when building the spaceship since I couldn't whip anymore.
The tips in these forums are much appreciated, even when I misread or blatantly ignore them. So thanks.
My problem was that I was using citizen automation, which seems to always go for balanced growth/production/beakers/gold. So my cities only ever had a food surplus of 2 or 3.
I was reading the slavery articles where somebody would say they would whip 5 pop and have it grow back by the end of 10 turns ... and it seemed unbelievable. Well, I still used citizen automation, but I maximized food, built farms on flood plains, and soon had massive food supluses -- on the order of 10-15 at times.
I know this is obvious to you guys, but it took me a week to realize my newbie mistake. I'd been using slavery to turn a slow growing 7 city to a slow growing 4 city -- which is not the recommended technique I imagine.
Anyway, I played a quick duel on noble that way and managed a 1946 space victory. Pretty much every city was all food and constant slavery. I was whipping every couple turns on some cities. I hit a wall when building the spaceship since I couldn't whip anymore.
The tips in these forums are much appreciated, even when I misread or blatantly ignore them. So thanks.
I think its because of the great plains map script. You tend to get more food poor starts because of it. I just played it through using my start method. I ended up founding 6 turns before you did, and built my third city at 2080 BC.Andrei_V said:
I was four turns away from CoL but my capital had a library, I had one more worker, and had more developed land overall. Only 1 axeman but I was building another. You hit CoL earlier due to your early focus on cottages but not by a signifigant amount. The gap would have closed in just a few turns due to more population, workers, and the earlier library soon enough. But all in all the overall situations are essentially the same. So obviously the three strategies all produce results in the same ballpark.
My main question is this though I produced my first settler at 2560 BC using two forest chops and I'd mined one hill and setup the camp. I then can get a granary whipped by 2320 BC leaving my capital at size two (but about to grow). I have only finished two cottages though.
Doesn't this put my with an earlier first settler and essentially the same capital state as you but earlier? I could replicate the rest of your play from this point on. You've got some additional cottages but I feel that could easily be made up in the meantime.
I would wean yourself off using automation exclusively though. It often does what you would do but you should be checking your cities tile usage manually often. Especially early in the game when you have very few cities so its easy and more important.scotchex said:
I still find except when the floodplains is the used by a city desperate for food (or needs the food to work a lot of hills) its better to cottage them. They still give net +1 food when worked but the cottage will eventually give you a lot of commerce from the tile.
I'm not trying to disparge you. (Heck if you can play and beat emperor you're a better player than I am, I still am stuck at Monarch) I'm using the term "strictly inferior" in a mathematical sense. Which now that you've taken offense I realize isn't appropriate.Andrei_V said:
If you can produce a settler earlier and reach the same capital state as your playthrough when you've founded your second city that'd be "strictly inferior" in the sense of a function being strictly bounded by another. Because London would be just as developed and my second city will have had 6 turns of growth.
Looking at the cottage development that might not be the case but I feel I could catch up pretty soon. Regardless trading two cottages for a chop and a mine isn't something I think will cause your opening to pull even with a conventional one. I think whipping settlers/workers after the first might work out better. But it certainly isn't so in the case of your first settler.
I apologize for the strictly inferior remark.
I reach a lot better state of science earlier. That's important. You don't always start close to Copper, especially a Copper close to your enemy's capital.
If you don't have any, you need Iron. You need that anyway if you're Caesar. With a better science, you can do it earlier. Maybe even before the AIs get there.
If you don't have Iron, you'd need Alphabet to trade for Masonry and Math, then get Construction.
Even if you have Copper, but your nearest neighbor is Mansa, you need that too. An old good early Axe rush may not work as good against lots of Skirmishers, as one could expect.
The library gives only 25% to your science. Besides, if you have better commerce, the library effect is greater. You may build a library 4-5 turns before me, but I'll still be away in tech. You can catch up 1 (max 2) turns.
4-5 turns can cost you a religion, if you are after one.
What would you do if there was no AIs nearby? Archipelago, alone on an island. You need additional techs to get away from your island.
What would you do, if you had not enough trees for chop? (happens all the time, and not only in floodplains starts.)
Commerce gives you science. Science gives you flexibility. You may get your city 6 or even 12 turns earlier, but what it is good for if you don't have proper tech?
If you don't have any, you need Iron. You need that anyway if you're Caesar. With a better science, you can do it earlier. Maybe even before the AIs get there.
If you don't have Iron, you'd need Alphabet to trade for Masonry and Math, then get Construction.
Even if you have Copper, but your nearest neighbor is Mansa, you need that too. An old good early Axe rush may not work as good against lots of Skirmishers, as one could expect.
The library gives only 25% to your science. Besides, if you have better commerce, the library effect is greater. You may build a library 4-5 turns before me, but I'll still be away in tech. You can catch up 1 (max 2) turns.
4-5 turns can cost you a religion, if you are after one.
What would you do if there was no AIs nearby? Archipelago, alone on an island. You need additional techs to get away from your island.
What would you do, if you had not enough trees for chop? (happens all the time, and not only in floodplains starts.)
Commerce gives you science. Science gives you flexibility. You may get your city 6 or even 12 turns earlier, but what it is good for if you don't have proper tech?
Paeanblack said:
Hmm, this raises a new confusion. How can you increase the progress of "several" items? I understand if the chop can finish off a build and there are extra hammers left over then they carry over to the next item. But they would only carry over to, say, the third item if the second build item was also completed in that same one turn. This is what you mean, correct?
Thats how overflow works. You can however add hammers to multiple different builds. What you do is you take manual control of your chopping workers. Finish your first chop, its hammers are added to your first build. Then go into your city and move something new to the top. Then go have your second worker finish its chop, those hammers are added to new first build in the queue. You could do this with as many forests as you can chop.NFIH said:
I'm going to mess around with developing cottages and figuring exactly how much commerce is gained/lost based on the respective tactic. Though I do find it interesting how these discussions can lead to interesting discoveries.Andrei_V said:
At first you touted the speed of your tactic. Its become very clear that its actually slow, but has the benefit of allowing you to develop multiple cottages because of the way your population rises so you can work more of them.
I actually have a hunch that whipping your first settler is more advantageous in a non flood plains start. Because in our test game the drop off from a mine (4 hammers to settler/worker production) to cottaged grassland (2 hammers) is severe enough to make developing cottages and normal building of settlers mutually exclusive. At least if you want to do it quickly.
