"When Utopia is achieved everyone will be conservative"

[Terxpahseyton]

Hm my idea of utopia isn't that actually everyone is happy. But rather that everyone lives in an environment as conductive to happiness as humanly possible. But humans seems to have the remarkable ability to always find reasons to be unhappy. And if that is so, I guarantee the romantization of more rough times.

 

[Tahuti]

Hm Kaiserguard, I can not really follow you.
Should somebody have told the Agrarian societies of Pre-Industrialization
"No, no. No mass production or republics for you. That will only weaken you. You must improve things by yourself."

Consider the persecution of Jews: Did it make their position more precarious in modern society since WWII? No, and if anything, stronger. Likewise, all-out government efforts to destroy poverty among minorities in the United States did not help and may actually have had the opposite effect. Now, I am not advocating inhumane treatment as a means to train a people, nor do I oppose a government or the adoption of a technology that steers things a little bit to improve some things in a small way.

Yet there is some reason why Jews and Asians are overall less often caught committing crimes and have lesser amounts of poverty in the US: They were raised to be this way. I do not attribute it to a racial superiority or inherited factor of any kind. People from these communities just have been more imbued with wisdom by their environment. Neither government nor technology can fix that, it has to come from within a community. At best, governments can accelerate the process of adjustments.

Western European countries also did not became free and prosperous nations because of good government policies, but because its populace is politically conscious enough to support such policies. Say, if Traitorfish were to convince me that Anarchocommunism would be the best society, I'd still say we collectively do not deserve it until we are smart enough to realise such a society ourselves.

 

[Hygro]

The Great Depression made liberalism dominant. 40 years of liberal dominance resulted in no one really knowing hard times, so conservatism became dominant. There is a certain conservatism which comes from not feeling the need to change things for the better. So in a utopia you'd expect people to see things as so good that no change should be made. Hence conservatism.

request to use more traditional definitions of liberalism and not the American media one?

 

[Tahuti]

request to use more traditional definitions of liberalism and not the American media one?

Yeah this. This is just one of the many reasons I believe news media are generally bad.

 

[Perfection]

When Utopia is achieved noone will give a crap about politics.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

EU-topia has already been achieved...

 

[Terxpahseyton]

When Utopia is achieved noone will give a crap about politics.

Perhaps the lack of politics is utopia.

 

[Tahuti]

I think the fall of men provides a useful allegory on how utopia's are destined to fail: Utopia's would be too boring to be sustained - if feasible.

 

[Hygro]

I think the fall of men provides a useful allegory on how utopia's are destined to fail: Utopia's would be too boring to be sustained - if feasible.

None of my favorite activities contradict Utopia. I don't understand this need to vicariously suffer to enjoy life.

 

[Tahuti]

None of my favorite activities contradict Utopia. I don't understand this need to vicariously suffer to enjoy life.

Someone has to pay for the downsides of anything. If it isn't someone else, it is going to be you. Try getting drunk at a nightclub.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I think the fall of men provides a useful allegory on how utopia's are destined to fail: Utopia's would be too boring to be sustained - if feasible.

Mens fall is due to the fact that even when truely inspired by some genuine reality this force of inspiration slowly become corrupted and deteriorate becouse of mens inherent weaknesses. Utopia is possible and inevitable when this is overcome by men rising beyond themselves.

 

[Tahuti]

Mens fall is due to the fact that even when truely inspired by some genuine reality this force of inspiration slowly become corrupted and deteriorate becouse of mens inherent weaknesses. Utopia is possible and inevitable when this is overcome by men rising beyond themselves.

Try imagining history as cyclical: Before creation (note, we are allegorical here), there was another world which was destroyed, not mentioned in the bible, which was progressing towards Eden. Then Eden was created, the Utopia. Finally the Utopia self-destructed. Now the cycle has restarted.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Try imagining history as cyclical: Before creation (note, we are allegorical here), there was another world which was destroyed, not mentioned in the bible, which was progressing towards Eden. Then Eden was created, the Utopia. Finally the Utopia self-destructed. Now the cycle has restarted.

Eden was neither Utopia nor perfect. We are dealing with the degree of perfection. You need to destroy the old and less perfect to move on.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

None of my favorite activities contradict Utopia. I don't understand this need to vicariously suffer to enjoy life.

I am starting to believe that once in a while some intensive emotional suffering is good for the soul. Somehow offers direction and purpose. Is all just fun and fun, things can get a little pointless / too comfortable over time.

But I don't see this problem in an utopia, because IMO the human soul will always find room to suffer if one allows it

Though that is probably a bit besides your point.

Someone has to pay for the downsides of anything. If it isn't someone else, it is going to be you. Try getting drunk at a nightclub.

I have often tried and succeeded.
What do I win?

 

[Hygro]

Someone has to pay for the downsides of anything. If it isn't someone else, it is going to be you. Try getting drunk at a nightclub.

I don't follow. What is your nightclub example about?

 

[Tahuti]

I am starting to believe that once in a while some intensive emotional suffering is good for the soul. Somehow offers direction and purpose. Is all just fun and fun, things can get a little pointless / too comfortable over time.

Well it is. Amor fati and all that.

I don't follow. What is your nightclub example about?

Getting a hangover?

Almost every vice that brings temporary pleasure is bound to get back bad really bad. It isn't that we should avoid it, since the tradeoff may be worth it. Everything has a cost. And most importantly, should have a cost.

 

[Hygro]

Well it is. Amor fati and all that.



Getting a hangover?

Almost every vice that brings temporary pleasure is bound to get back bad really bad. It isn't that we should avoid it, since the tradeoff may be worth it. Everything has a cost. And most importantly, should have a cost.

How does any of that contradict a Utopian social system?

 

[Tahuti]

How does any of that contradict a Utopian social system?

Utopia is supposed to be (almost) perfect, as in with no downsides.

 

[Hygro]

Utopia is supposed to be (almost) perfect, as in with no downsides.

Well being crushed by boredom is a pretty obvious downside. Meanwhile waking up with a hangover after drinking too much is not such a big deal. The idea that a Utopia would stop partying to prevent hangovers, to me, contradicts the concept of Utopia while getting hangovers doesn't.

 

[Tahuti]

Well being crushed by boredom is a pretty obvious downside. Meanwhile waking up with a hangover after drinking too much is not such a big deal. The idea that a Utopia would stop partying to prevent hangovers, to me, contradicts the concept of Utopia while getting hangovers doesn't.

Rather, Utopia would allow partying but no hangovers. Imagine this elimination of downsides applies elsewhere...