Where do they get these wonders?

Lich Lord

Chieftain
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Messages
9
Not 'where did they find out that exists'. I mean where did they ever figer out what the bonus should be?

A few are obvious, like the great wall.

And I can understand a few of the obscure ones, like the secret police acting like a third capital is probably because of how the Red Gustopia (as bad as that spelling in I'd hate to give the actual, russian name a go...) ruled East Berlin with more of an iron fist then say... St. Petersburg Russia. But like... the pyrmids give you granaries? A big tomb makes you happy? The women's right movement makes your populus more militant?

Wtf man?

Am I the only one that thinks for some of them, they just thought a structer was niffty so they put it in for its own sake?
 
I think that building a wonder represents total mastery of the technology that allow that wonder to be built. If you develop a technology that allows you to build a military wonder, then your mastery of that technology gives you the bonus associated with the wonder - barracks (veteran troops) in all your cities, cheaper unit upgrades, etc.
It's a concept, not necessarily based on reality. Nobody thinks that every Egyptian city miraculously possessed a granary on the day the Great Pyramid was finished.
 
And some of it does have historical basis. For instance, for centuries, European scientists thought that the Pyramids were actually large granaries! (No, I don't know *why* they thought that, but they did.) Since they *are* one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, they *had* to be included in Civ1. When deciding what benefit to give them, the designers finally settled on this historically incorrect, but gameplay-useful, attribute.
 
Don't think of giving the women the right to vote is going to make your population more militant. Think of it as empowering a minority, and that will make the minority just a little happier, because now they can influence things. They are willing to put up with more, because they know they can change it, if need be. Instead of sitting on the sidelines, powerless, and wreaking havoc becase of it.

At least in Civ3 Pyramids make a bit more sense. In Civ2, they allowed you to pick any gov't that you wanted. . . how did that work? I never understood it, but hey, it was part of the game. The way I view it, is that each city is so impressed by having the pyramids, they make smaller ones in tribute. And what should we do with this building? Let's store grain in it! ;) That kind of thing.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm a total realism whore and I'm appalled at the smallest innacuracies, but this is still a video game, and some things do what they do simply because of game balance, and some for lack of better qualities (can you think of anything accurate that the pyramids can do in the game? Gimme a break, they were just extremely grandiose tombs...)

Btw, I used to post here on and off for nearly two years (I start posting every time I get addicted to civ again... This is my third time. Goddamn C3C ownz. ^^)
I don't suppose there's any way to change my username, right? I haven't been calling myself ShadowFlame since late july. =\
 
Originally posted by ShadowFlame
Don't get me wrong, I'm a total realism whore and I'm appalled at the smallest innacuracies, but this is still a video game, and some things do what they do simply because of game balance, and some for lack of better qualities (can you think of anything accurate that the pyramids can do in the game? Gimme a break, they were just extremely grandiose tombs...)

Btw, I used to post here on and off for nearly two years (I start posting every time I get addicted to civ again... This is my third time. Goddamn C3C ownz. ^^)
I don't suppose there's any way to change my username, right? I haven't been calling myself ShadowFlame since late july. =\
Welcome back. ;)

If you have a *legitimate reason* for changing your name, you can PM/email Thunderfall. He may or may not honor your request. In any case, do NOT make a new username (a Duplicate Login). Every user is entitled to a sinlge login-id, and DLs find themselves banned.
 
In the case of Pyramids you can link that to the state organzation that erected these Pyramids. Sure these were tombs but they were erected by skilled craftsmen and villagers when their fields were "under" the Nile and these people could be gathered because the state organized common agricultural practices and did the forecast (which includes granaries).

For Mausolos' Tomb. This tomb was as well a public monument with gardens, open space and architectural or artistic beauties. These would allow the people to come, walk, gather, talk, trade, teach.... Mausolos was very hellenized in a way and this kind of place was actually very pleasing for the Greeks.
The tomb of Alexander in Alexandria was not much different in that matter.
 
I always assumed the effect of the Pyramids was a nod to the Biblical (and Koranic, I guess) story of Joseph and the Pharaoh.

Happiness is just a good generic effect of a wonder that "looks cool" but has no clear-cut purpose. Money/commerce would be another reasonable way to reward you, but happiness is generally more helpful (if you're playing at Regent or beyond).

Suffrage is an odd cause/reward, but it came about in the United States right about the time that the population in the western world was becoming more militant and nationalistic. It's a reasonable effect placed at a reasonable time in the game. Most likely they picked an odd name for the wonder's effects, rather than an odd effect for the wonder's name.
 
Women's suffrage makes lots of sense if you consider it made Rosie the Riveter a staunch patriot.

The granary wonder is odd, but no more than granaries themselves, in this game.
 
The suffrage movement gave a previously excluded majority of the adult population the vote.

The reasoning behind having the US wonder decrease war weariness has to do with the nature of the World Wars, where women took over men's jobs in factories, businesses, governments, and even became more directly involved in the war effort. So it is assumed that this greater participation in wage-earning by women offset the unhappiness caused by families being separated (sometimes permanently) by war.
 
I think all the wonders give some relationship to their benefit but this is a game...

For the pyramids, I found this reference <http://www.ccel.org/ccel/johnson_bw/pnt.pnt0527.html> of Egypt being the granary or Rome. This and the past misconception of the pyramids being used as a granary is probably enough of a link to give this bonus.

For civ 1, you could switch govt with 1 turn of anarchy if you built the pyramids. This reflects the Egyptians fervent belief in the afterlife and what you did on earth carried over to the after life. That is a religious trait in civ 3.

I can't remember what the pyramids did in civ but I think they were granaries.
 
In Civ1, Pyramids allowed a change of government w/o anarchy, even to any government you didn't have yet. Since the Pyramids come so early, this was rightly seen as extremely unbalancing.

Thus in Civ2, the Pyramids' old attributes were given to a new wonder, the Statue of Liberty, that came during the industrial age. The Pyramids got the new attribute of putting granaries in all your cities.

In Civ3, the Religious attribute grants the government change with minimal anarchy, so the Statue of Liberty was taken out--disappointing. The Pyramids were unchanged.:egypt:
 
They could have left the Statue of Liberty in for Civ 3. It could attract a foreign worker every 5 turns. ;)
 
If you could make a wonder generate foreign workers instead of national workers that might actually work.
 
That's a great idea! I'd love to see that. And as an added bonus, it works at normal speed, not 'slave' speed.

Shouldn't be too hard. . . You can set it up to spawn any unit in the editor already. Shouldn't be too hard to set up a foreign flag.
 
Statue of Liberty good idea - make it available with steam power? The problem is that it would only create workers in an era when workers become pretty much redundant. Therefore, I reckon it should not only produce a worker every 2-3 turns (they only cost 10 shields to build anyway), which could be 'built' into the city, but also the city should not need a hospital to grow past 12- still easily done in the editor. Of course, can only be built in a coastal city (that has a harbour?)
 
Hye, I really like the Statues of Liberty Idea!!! Firaxis, seriously consider this one. This would be a great wonder, available with Steam Power does not make sense since Steam Power already gives you a lot. Maybe a new tech . . . ? But yes, it should generate fioreign workers every 5 times that should not work as fast as regular workers, but faster then Slave Workers. Maybe in a Mod . . .
 
about the statue of liberty, i suggest this:

implement the concept of immigartion into civ. Kind of like cultural conversionsm, but they cities don't have to be touchining. It all depends on government, happiness, etc.

The statue of liberty would: increase chance of imigtration to your civ OR (you get an option) "give" it to another civ (like france to america), they get the benifit, but your rep with them goes to groucioius, and one level up with all the other civs.
 
This Statue of Liberty is a great idea. But I don't see the need to make them "foreign-but-better-than-slaves". Just make them regular nationals, the whole idea behind American "melting pot" being the assimilation of immigrants. Plus the player should feel free to add them to cities (so they don't have to pay upkeep) and not worry about happiness problems.

I think it's arrival with steam power is perfect timing for getting a head start on rails, and then with hospitals around the corner more tiles need improvement. All without sacrificing the production (often well over 10 shields at this point anyway) or the food surplus which is of course the real cost of workers anyway.

Also giving the city it's built in a free hospital or even a shield bonus (like iron works or factory) would justify it's wonder-level shield cost.

Can this be modded in with the editor as it is now?
 
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