Where does anti-Semitism start

[Richard III]

Originally posted by Yaniv

Judism is a religon and can be compared with Christians, Muslims, Budists etc.
Israeli is a nationalism and can be compared with Amreicans, Europeans, Chinese etc.

Or, more to the point:

It's like denouncing a third-generation chinese canadian for the activities of the Chinese government.

Judiasm is considered both a religon and - by some - a race.

As I've pointed out repeatedly, it is quite possible - in fact, likely - to be a Jew and not an Israeli. Iceblaze's point was pretty cutting - e.g. what difference should it make to the treatment of people if they could be a citizen of something?

Isn't it far more relevant as to whether they ARE a citizen of something? I come back to my example of my jewish friend who is not, and has no intention, of being Israeli. She is quite disturbed by Israeli policy. She "supports" Israel to the same degree that I "support" Sweden - e.g. she doesn't want it to be driven into the sea, and doesn't like the idea of Swedes getting killed, but she isn't out handing out leaflets in favor of annexing the West Bank or anything. She has no relatives in Israel, was never born there, and visited it once as a tourist. But she is a Jew - both by race (in her definition) and religon. I repeat, this is a common situation; arguably, as many Jews share her situation as there are in Israel, if not more.

By your logic, these facts - and the distance of several thousand miles between her and Israel itself - add up to it being legitimate to denounce her as somehow responsible for everything the state of Israel does, or worse. I have yet to hear a shred of logic as to why.

R.III

 

[Richard III]

double post, sorry

 

[Drewcifer]

Originally posted by ZultanofZex


And until proven otherwise, I do believe that most Jews support Israel. And these days telepathy can be replaced by reading the same papers, using internet, talking on the phone, watching TV.

If by saying "most Jews support Israel" you mean that most Jews support the actions of the Sharon government then you have no understanding of the Jewish diaspora community and little of Israeli politics. The attitudes within the American Jewish community (for example) towards Sharon range from solidarity to outright hatred.

Most of the American Jews I know (not necessarily a representative sample) firmly support Israel as a nation but are skeptical of it's current govenment.

Just out of curiosity do you believe that Israel has a right to exist? Do you think that it's creation was a mistake?

 

[WickedSmurf]

If I may...

I think that the creation of Israel was a mistake due to the West's bad conscience over the mistreatment of Jewish people by the Nazis during WWII.

I do not consider myself anti semitic. I have nothing against Jews at all, although I strongly dislike the current politics of the state of Israel.

That said, I go back to my coffee.

 

[Drewcifer]

This analogy may not be apropos to the current argument but until recent times it was common for white Americans to say that they wished blacks had never been brought to North America. In my mind such a line of thinking about the past denies present day people their identity and is the precipice atop a slippery slope. Black activist thinkers pointed to this as a form of subliminal racism in the American conciousness. It is more about why something is thought than the idea itself. They could be wrong and this may have no bearing on the conversation but it is something to think about.

Edit: I apologize for wilfully setting a rhetorical trap.

 

[HuckFinn]

An interesting point, Drewcifer. If someone says that they wish the state of Israel had never been founded, is that an anti-something statement? IMO, a case can be made that the entire Western world would not be in such deep s**t over this issue without the Zionist movement (and Western support for it). And I claim that one can state this neutrally too... after all it is a fact.

While the statement of "if blacks had never been brought to America, the American racial problems would not exist" certainly holds as well, in the end, it is a moot point... you always have to work within present reality, and the fact is that the state of Israel exists and that there are blacks are in America.

I think the racism or anti-semitism or whatever comes into the picture when you start imagining that you can just go and "undo" things without regard towards the people who are involved and who are completely innocent on a personal level. You can't approach the problem that way... you need to work with what you've got and find an alternative route from simple reversal...

 

[Enemy Ace]

I wish these people would just take a chill pill and stop this insanity. I don't want to see people dying anymore, on any side.

 

[Jorge]

Anti-semitism starts when you visit any european capital and you are charged 5 euros to visit any synagogue but you are allowed to enter free in any cathedral (just kiding).

Seriously, anti-semitism stars when people generalise. If one jew makes something wrong, then blame all the jews. But it happens with all groups, religions and nationalities, not only jews. Many people is anti-muslin too, just because some muslims are radical and do terrible things. Or for example the problem in North Ireland between catholics and protestants (although this one is fortunatly in the way to get solved). It's all about the same, blaming a whole group for the actions of a few persons.

 

[ZultanofZex]

Richard III

I quite agree with you, and as I said, I was winding you up. My point is, that I have never seen this heated discussion about other sloppy comments about races, religions, political views, whatever.

While certain posters can advocate nuclear attacks on "the reds", comment that "The Palestinians ain't even a race" and so on...(cannot be arsed to go through the Forum for all the quotes, but you probably know what I am talking about) a single sentence taken from a book can apparently be used as a symbol for some anti Jewish conspiracy. As I said earlier, in all honesty, I have NEVER seen any anti semitism in organized form. Racism toward other minorities here, yes, plenty.

Ehhh, someone else wanted to know if I supported the excistance of Israel or not. Of course I do, only a fool wouldn't. There is a place, people live there and have been doing so for so many years that it is their only home. I support Israel just as much as I support Norweig, to keep that connection going in this thread...

 

[IceBlaZe]

I said "Most sane people" since extremists of both sides, unsurprisingly, do not like his opinions.
I didn't mean you aren't sane...
I can change that to "Most moderate Israelis". Better?

 

[ZultanofZex]

yeah, works better for me.

 

[Richard III]

Zultan, I'm sorry to hear that, insofar as I HAVE seen similar conversations in this forum and elsewhere, so I wished you'd seen them. To pick some vague examples from memory:

Several people denouncing some of our more reactionary posters for generalizations about palestinians as terrorists who should be nuked, etc.

XIII, supported by many others, I think, arguing against generalizations about "chinese values" and implying that the Chinese emigre community must share them.

Someone being rapped on the knuckles for generalizing about Europeans being anti-semitic; someone was a little careless with the "european" as opposed to "some europeans" or whatever and the fallout was several threads in length.

Several mods quite rightly denouncing me for my generalizations of about France ( but I've stopped, and decided to put that childishness behind me. To quote Doc Holliday in Tombstone, "my hypocrisy only goes so far.")

...and so it's frustrating to see that when it comes to Jews, all of a sudden you hear that they're getting a "special deal" if they're being defended. I'm still outraged at one poster's insinuation that because I found a particular remark anti-semitic, I must therefore be jewish. How sick is it when we start "weighing and measuring" our opposition to racism?

R.III

And for the record, I think Zionism in Palestine was a stupid, arrogant and hypocritical idea. That said, Israel is there now, and the people living there have rights too - including the right to live. And to use the fact that it was a stupid idea 50 years ago as an excuse to butcher thousands of innocent people who didn't make the decision to found it is compounding the mistake, not fixing it. There are better ways to solve the Palestinian problem than to obsess about whether Israel should have been created or not. Dozens of better ways.

It's like dealing with native claims in North America: even without the historical and cultural issues involved, I sympathize with many of them on the grounds of law, but to solve those claims by expelling millions of people of european descent - many of them born here with no memory of life before "contact" - isn't a solution. And the funny thing is, I've met some of the most radical native activists there are, and the smart ones aren't stupid enough to talk about whether or not "Canada has a right to exist" or "deporting the white man" unless they're sharing a joke in the local pub.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Richard III

Iceblaze and G-man being rapped on the knuckles for generalizing about Europeans being anti-semitic; someone was a little careless with the "european" as opposed to "some europeans" or whatever and the fallout was several threads in length.

And for the record, I think Zionism in Palestine was a stupid, arrogant and hypocritical idea. That said, Israel is there now, and the people living there have rights too - including the right to live. And to use the fact that it was a stupid idea 50 years ago as an excuse to butcher thousands of innocent people who didn't make the decision to found it is compounding the mistake, not fixing it. There are better ways to solve the Palestinian problem than to obsess about whether Israel should have been created or not. Dozens of better ways.

Just for the record:
- I never made any such generalizations.
- I think that my very existence is a proof of why zionism wasn't a stupid idea.

 

[Dr. Dr. Doktor]

One thing I find worrying is that while anti-semitic attacks are widely reported in the Israeli and American media, it does seem that the more frequent bouts of anti-muslim rhetoric and hate crimes tend to go un-noticed. For instance the fire-bombings against refugee centres, the persistent portrayal of Islam as a barbarous and militant religion, and the recent burning down of a mosque in Malmö, Sweden. Often the media distortion is truly absurd. For instance it was reported in American media that the Kosher method of slaughtering animals has been forbidden in many European countires. What is missing is that these laws were initially undertaken to placate the far right's opportunistic dismay at the Muslim practice of Halal slaughter, which is similar to the Jewish one. The recent French decision to disallow students from wearing the muslim headdress in School, was totally superced by a french rabbi's declaration that young Jews should not wear their particular headdress, but a common baseball cap instead - this was of course presented as yet another example of the insidious anti-semitism of the French.

So while it was initially the popular belief that it was the Europeans generally who were anti-semites, we are now presented with the story that this was indeed a mistake. Now one will only target the radical muslims who undertake such things. This should of course be dealt with. But to seek to reap political dividends from this 'smart' propaganda is tasteless.

Once again I really don't understand what the point is, since I find it very hard to believe that European politicians will be cowed and distracted from the real issue at hand - namely the state of Israel's oppression of the Palestinians.

Btw. There has been a propaganda effort underway to present a picture that it would be dangerous in my country to openly show one's Jewish religion. A Danish Jew decided that he would find out if that was indeed true and decided to take a walk in a Muslim quarter wearing the Jewish cap. Surprisingly he was never assaulted, chastized, frowned upon by anyone, but was greeted in the usual friendly manner whereever he went.

Trying to ignite hatred between Europeans, Jews, and Muslims, no matter who does it, be it al-quada, the government of Sharon, or European racists, have persistently failed and will continue to do so.

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by G-Man


Just for the record:
- I never made any such generalizations.
- I think that my very existence is a proof of why zionism wasn't a stupid idea.

First, sorry for my fuzzy memory, I've corrected my post to read "someone."

I'm at a loss as to how your existence proves that zionism wasn't a stupid idea. I'm sure you would have been born elsewhere... I don't regard my existence as proof of the success of British colonialism...?

Allow me to go back to the best portrayal I've ever seen of the genius of the Israeli idea, by the Onion in its fake "headlines from history" book:

(Nov. 9, 1948) War Weary Jews Establish Homeland Between Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt.

"In Israel, Our People Will Finally Have Safety and Peace," Says Ben Gurion.

Any idiot could have seen how slapping a state there would create decades of warfare, a notion proven by the fact that many idiots DID foresee that exact result and urged caution accordingly. Sure, you won all of those wars. Still happy to have racked up those bragging rights? I'm reminded of a brilliant work of satire I saw in the bookstore the other day by an Israeli officer called "how to win wars by losing them completely" or some such thing.

As I've said, I don't deny Israel's right to exist now, nor do I deny Israeli citizens the right to life, and I'm now 100% - not 20%, or 50%, but 100% - against the existing Palestinian authority getting anything from anybody whatsoever; the most recent wave of attacks was the last straw for me, f*** 'em until they can prove that they understand that "nationhood" also equals "responsibility."

That's reality for today. But given what I know of the facts at the time, I can't help but be baffled as to how anyone could have seen Zionism as an intelligent policy solution to anything beyond the very very short term. And please don't suggest that Jews would have been exterminated in the last 50 years without Israel; arguably, Israel made that terrible prospect more likely by perversely making it easier to target large numbers of Jews in one central and controversial location. However much anti-semitism may still exist in Europe, Russia, and North America, it's pretty hard to suggest that there would be anything like the casualties Jews have suffered in the last 50 years if every Jew who moved to Israel hadn't done so.

R.III

 

[IceBlaZe]

Btw. There has been a propaganda effort underway to present a picture that it would be dangerous in my country to openly show one's Jewish religion. A Danish Jew decided that he would find out if that was indeed true and decided to take a walk in a Muslim quarter wearing the Jewish cap. Surprisingly he was never assaulted, chastized, frowned upon by anyone, but was greeted in the usual friendly manner whereever he went.

That case doesn't really prove anything, as there are hundreds of cases that show the exact opposit, whether we are talking about your country (less) or countries in Europe with a bigger Muslim population (more). It's like trying to prove cigarettes do not cause cancer because you know a smoker who wasn't stricken by cancer.

One thing I find worrying is that while anti-semitic attacks are widely reported in the Israeli and American media, it does seem that the more frequent bouts of anti-muslim rhetoric and hate crimes tend to go un-noticed. For instance the fire-bombings against refugee centres,

Fire bombings against refugee centres do not result from anti-Islam sentiments in the Israeli government decision makers (unless you can prove otherwise).
This is quite ridicolous, actually - you think that if the Palestinians were Christian (as some are, actually), Israel wouldn't take the same actions to defend it's citizens?

The recent French decision to disallow students from wearing the muslim headdress in School, was totally superced by a french rabbi's declaration that young Jews should not wear their particular headdress, but a common baseball cap instead - this was of course presented as yet another example of the insidious anti-semitism of the French.

Your comparison lacks a logical conclusion.
The French rabbi made the statement because he thinks that Jews can be assaulted mainly by muslims. The Jewish head cover makes Jews easily distincable, so the rabbi told Jews to wear something undistinguishable, such as BCaps.

The muslim headscarf is considered to be more provocative, and it is banned from academic locations even in a secular muslim state - Turkey.
However, the case was reported in the news.

Even though, it is noticable that the two cases are different - the Jewish rabbi made the decision himself - Jews weren't forced to wear baseball caps.

Once again I really don't understand what the point is, since I find it very hard to believe that European politicians will be cowed and distracted from the real issue at hand - namely the state of Israel's oppression of the Palestinians.

So this is NOT a real issue?
For Europe, the actiosn inside their own territory is much more a real issue than the actions of Israel.

 

[Dr. Dr. Doktor]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe


That case doesn't really prove anything, as there are hundreds of cases that show the exact opposit, whether we are talking about your country (less) or countries in Europe with a bigger Muslim population (more).

Yes, there are hundreds of cases in my country too. The Jewish Organisation, which does not represent all Jews, in my country have hundreds of files containing alleged attacks against jews. Strangely they won't hand these files over to the police. The sources are anonymous. If these files contains information as to who the suspected attackers are they would be illigal, however the judiciary turns a blind eye to such. What would the news not be? 'Jews not allowed to defend themselves in Denmark'.

Only one person in Denmark has been convicted of anti-semitism I think. A radical Muslim from the organisation Hizbut Tahir, which have 200 members. He passed around a flier which quoted something from the Quoran which said "And kill all Jews wherever you find them on your land'. He was given a six month sentence I think. So there goes freedom of expression. Nevertheless I think it fair because the law on racism was passed to protect Muslims from increasingly hostile attacks, verbal and physical.

As to whether Jews are being adequately protected in Europe I would emphatically answer in the positive. Now whether Muslims are being adequately proteced in Israel or in the U.S, well, I would not be so sure.

 

[ZultanofZex]

Doctor!

Good post. I agree with that one.

Of course there are problems, but I do not see anti anti semitism spreading. Anti Israeli feelings, yes, but a huge wave of European muslims on the rampage...naaah...

 

[ZultanofZex]

In Sweden, radio Islam has been banned many times and fauriceau (spelling?) is not allowed to teach history here, or lecture in it.

 

[Dr. Dr. Doktor]

Originally posted by ZultanofZex
Of course there are problems, but I do not see anti anti semitism spreading.

anti-antisemitism.