Where does anti-Semitism start

[ZultanofZex]

Oh, sorry....

hahahaha, that became a very confused sentence...

A-N-T-I - S-E-M-I-T-I-S-M

There....

 

[Dr. Dr. Doktor]

Anti-antisemitism...

Reminds me that recent studies have shown that a surprising number of students don't know about the Holocaust.

This is frustrating because it is mandated curriculum in all European schools I would think.

Also, there has been a growing relativism regarding this issue. With studies being done in the Armenian genocide, the Rwandan genocide, the massacres on Bosnian Muslims in the Former Yugoslavia, the Gulag in the Soviet Union, the uniqueness of the Holocaust is often forgotten. I for one believe that the Holocaust was in fact a unique in its scale and brutality.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Originally posted by Dr. Dr. Doktor


Yes, there are hundreds of cases in my country too. The Jewish Organisation, which does not represent all Jews, in my country have hundreds of files containing alleged attacks against jews. Strangely they won't hand these files over to the police. The sources are anonymous. If these files contains information as to who the suspected attackers are they would be illigal, however the judiciary turns a blind eye to such. What would the news not be? 'Jews not allowed to defend themselves in Denmark'.

Again, I fail to see what you are trying to prove here.
So there is an overly-sensitive, call it extreme if you wish, Jewish organization that falsifies attacks on Jews. So? That means there are no attacks? Does that prove what I said is false?
You need to take a course in logic.
As I said, there are hundreds of cases in Europe, less of them taking place in your country (luckily for you), and more of them taking place in bigger countries with a larger muslim population, such as France.

Only one person in Denmark has been convicted of anti-semitism I think. A radical Muslim from the organisation Hizbut Tahir, which have 200 members. He passed around a flier which quoted something from the Quoran which said "And kill all Jews wherever you find them on your land'. He was given a six month sentence I think. So there goes freedom of expression.

Only one person in Denmark convicted (I trust you on this statistic) - however there are several recorded incidents of anti-Semitism in the last year.
He was sentenced for 60 days, not six months, and the organization's members are valued at 1,000, not 200, and that is without counting the respectable number of youths it managed to "recruit" last year.
If the anti-Semitism in Denmark is so mild and unnoticable, how come the mayor of Copenhagen turned to the police for special action to be taken to the protection of it's Jewish citizens?
Even the mayor is aware of the increasing problem - you aren't?

As to whether Jews are being adequately protected in Europe I would emphatically answer in the positive. Now whether Muslims are being adequately proteced in Israel or in the U.S, well, I would not be so sure.

Changing the topic - is that a specialty of yours?
Let us assume you are right and that Muslims are not well-enough protected in Israel and the U.S. - does that change anything about the attacks against Jews - which are the original topic of this thread?
Don't "spin" me.

 

[Dr. Dr. Doktor]

Iceblace. Cool it.

Ok. I admit my info on Hizbut Tahir is a little dated (a five fold increase in one year. Holy xxxx)

The thing about the major of Copenhagen. Never heard of it, probably since I don't live there. Could you give me link. Seriously interested.

 

[HuckFinn]

I need to support Zultan here. There are European countries that do not have anti-semitism, and that should not automatically be accused of it pro forma, no matter how politically convenient such slander would be.

I have not ever witnessed any sort of anti-semitic activity in my country... sure, the Finnish Jewish population is marginal to begin with, but there is definitely not any organized hostility against them... at least not more than against any random minority.

Yet, a few months ago, when our foreign minister criticized Israel, we instantly got a diplomat from Tel Aviv suggesting that our country is particularly anti-semitic... come on!! Behaviour like this is just the perfect way to make us peeved... it does not help your case much.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Iceblace. Cool it.

I'm cool. Cool is my nickname, in a way

Ok. I admit my info on Hizbut Tahir is a little dated (a five fold increase in one year. Holy xxxx)

The thing about the major of Copenhagen. Never heard of it, probably since I don't live there. Could you give me link. Seriously interested

I took my info from The Stephen Roth Institute, researching anti-Semitism and racism, based in the Tel-Aviv University.

http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/

It's there in the annual report about Denmark, IIRC.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Originally posted by HuckFinn
I need to support Zultan here. There are European countries that do not have anti-semitism, and that should not automatically be accused of it pro forma, no matter how politically convenient such slander would be.

I have not ever witnessed any sort of anti-semitic activity in my country... sure, the Finnish Jewish population is marginal to begin with, but there is definitely not any organized hostility against them... at least not more than against any random minority.

Yet, a few months ago, when our foreign minister criticized Israel, we instantly got a diplomat from Tel Aviv suggesting that our country is particularly anti-semitic... come on!! Behaviour like this is just the perfect way to make us peeved... it does not help your case much.

That is a reason to despise that diplomat, or the Israeli Government (if that was its official response), not the Jews as a whole or Israelis as a whole.
Furthermore it is definately not a reason to believe there is no anti-Semitism.

 

[Dr. Dr. Doktor]

Iceblaze.

From the annual report on Denmark 2002/03

"Jewish community president Jacques Blum told reporters that Jews were afraid to walk in certain areas."

I am not lying when I say that Jaques Blum is a major embarassment. He was handed a jail sentence for slander because he claimed that a freelance historian and librarian, who supposedly is investigating the Danish far right, was an undercover nazi or something to that effect. In my mind he was right to say so, and from what i suspct truthful, but he did not have any evidence to let the charges stick.

He presents himself badly in the media, and has an authoritarian zealous attitude which turns many Danes off. In short he is an intelligent and respected academic, but he is an awful politican.

That the report seeks to compare rightwing hate-crimes against Jews with leftwing boycot against the state of Israel somewhat detracts form the trustworthiness of it. I would not consider the latter anti-semitism. I would trust it on the hate-crimes issue, since i don't know better. But mind you no-one steps free from nazi violence. Even 'normal' people like myself have had the one or two unfortunate encounters.

 

[IceBlaZe]

That the report seeks to compare rightwing hate-crimes against Jews with leftwing boycot against the state of Israel somewhat detracts form the trustworthiness of it.

The report is very conclusive and includes records of anti-Israeli actions as well as pure anti-Jewish actions, since anti-Israeli actions might be driven by anti-Semitism, or taken advantage of by anti-Semites.
However, the report does not imply that it certainly is a result of anti-Semitism. Therefore, I see no reason to decrease from it's trustworthiness.
It is actually known that in some cases, the harshest protesters against Israel are Jews, and anti-Semites. It's not that hard to believe, really.

 

[HuckFinn]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
That is a reason to despise that diplomat, or the Israeli Government (if that was its official response), not the Jews as a whole or Israelis as a whole.

Yes, it was the official response. Our (admittedly former left-wing radical) foreign minister had something to say about the treatment of Palestinians, and it was followed with insinuation about anti-semitism...

Here we come to the question of the responsibility of the electorate. This diplomat was sent to Finland by the Israeli Government, which supposedly represents the Israeli people. According to your logic, the people living in democracies are completely not responsible for the actions of their government...

If I were Israeli, I would be worried if a diplomat representing me started to throw around wild suggestions of anti-semitism... certainly I am a person who realizes that you guys have the chance to change your government in the next election, but it will most definitely harm my overall perception, no matter what.

Furthermore it is definately not a reason to believe there is no anti-Semitism.

So it's "anti-semitic until proven not guilty"?

 

[IceBlaZe]

Yes, it was the official response. Our (admittedly former left-wing radical) foreign minister had something to say about the treatment of Palestinians, and it was followed with insinuation about anti-semitism...

Here we come to the question of the responsibility of the electorate. This diplomat was sent to Finland by the Israeli Government, which supposedly represents the Israeli people. According to your logic, the people living in democracies are completely not responsible for the actions of their government...

If I were Israeli, I would be worried if a diplomat representing me started to throw around wild suggestions of anti-semitism... certainly I am a person who realizes that you guys have the chance to change your government in the next election, but it will most definitely harm my overall perception, no matter what.

Governments do not rise and fall due to the blurp of some representative in a country with barely any Jewish community.
Yes, it is an unfortunate and misleading statement by the representative - which I don't support - but that certainly isn't a reason to despise Israel. I didn't even hear of the incident.

So it's "anti-semitic until proven not guilty"?

That's not what I said.


EDIT: Let me add that it is embarassing that sometimes the Israeli government uses the policy of "anti-semitizing" every anti-Israeli incident - and it certainly doesn't help us. It is a stupid policy, and it is criticized by many. However, as I said, that will not cause a certain government to fall.

 

[Dr. Dr. Doktor]

Also from the report:

"On 7 April about 100 Palestinians, assisted by members of the neo-Nazi White Pride group, shouted, pushed and threw rocks and bottles during a peaceful pro-Israel demonstration in Copenhagen organized by Christian activist Moses Hansen."

There would be a very good reason for the Jewish community to distance themselves totally from this christian fundamentalist preacher who calls himself Moses Hansen. He has suffered a major backlash and, has so far as I know, been accused of the grossest violations of child abuse. That is how low the debate level is in Europe, and one has to live with it I suppose. Furthermore his 'show' involves wrapping himself in the the flag of Israel while carrying a Christian cross, and then reciting various passages from the bible, things of doomsday and other potent stuff. Funny thing he only does this when media attention regarding Israeli military actions against Palestinians are reaching 'shock level' in the media. Naturally he is simply asking for trouble. I think he is insane.

 

[IceBlaZe]

What matters is the message the rally carries, not the organizer of it. However, there are many cases of Jews even harboring extremist rightists (or the other way around) only to counter Muslims. It's not just... It's ugly...

 

[HuckFinn]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Governments do not rise and fall due to the blurp of some representative in a country with barely any Jewish community.

Probably not. Still, for me, an ambassador is indeed what he is supposed to be -- a representative of his country in my country -- and I tend to give certain credibility to whatever he has to say about things. That's what his job is, after all.

Yes, it is an unfortunate and misleading statement by the representative - which I don't support - but that certainly isn't a reason to despise Israel.

I don't think I have been particularly despising Israel because of this incident... I have merely stated it is not helpful for Israel's image abroad.

That's not what I said.

According to my understanding, you're saying that just simply because I don't think there is any observable anti-semitism in this country, doesn't mean there is not any... I think the burden of proof goes the other way.

Let me add that it is embarassing that sometimes the Israeli government uses the policy of "anti-semitizing" every anti-Israeli incident - and it certainly doesn't help us. It is a stupid policy, and it is criticized by many.

A good edit

It is good that you recognize this... it's a crappy position for a diplomat to take, and I'm not going to hold it against Israelis in general as long as it seems that the people there are able to see the problem themselves.

 

[IceBlaZe]

According to my understanding, you're saying that just simply because I don't think there is any observable anti-semitism in this country, doesn't mean there is not any... I think the burden of proof goes the other way.

No, what I meant is that just because some people (e.g. the diplomat) exaggerate anti-Israeli sentiments to anti-Semitism, you shouldn't conclude that there isn't any anti-Semitism.

 

[Dr. Dr. Doktor]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
What matters is the message the rally carries, not the organizer of it. However, there are many cases of Jews even harboring extremist rightists (or the other way around) only to counter Muslims. It's not just... It's ugly...

But fortunately there are a plenty of publicly minded Jews, journalists, historians, actors, who present themselves in a completely secularized way, and who hold views which are either for the current policy of Israel or completely against it. And likewise Muslims are able to present their views in a sensible way. They would of course all be considered leftist by a non-european standard.

The problem I think happens when either side tries to present themselves as a group or an organisation, when certain people make claims to speak for a whole community. That is where the bigotry and hatred starts.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Hehe.

EU body shelves report on anti-semitism
By Bertrand Benoit in Berlin
Published: November 21 2003 21:10 | Last Updated: November 21 2003 21:10

Financial Times



The European Union's racism watchdog has shelved a report on anti-semitism because the study concluded Muslims and pro-Palestinian groups were behind many of the incidents it examined.

The Vienna-based European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) decided in February not to publish the 112-page study, a copy of which was obtained by the Financial Times, after clashing with its authors over their conclusions.

The news comes amid growing fears that there is an upsurge of anti-semitism in European Union countries. Among many recent incidents, a Jewish school near Paris was firebombed last Saturday, the same day two Istanbul synagogues were devastated by suicide truck bombs that killed 25 and wounded 300.

Turkey, which hopes to join the EU, suffered again at the hands of what are believed to be al-Qaeda inspired terrorists on Thursday with truck bomb attacks on British targets.

Following a spate of incidents in early 2002, the EUMC commissioned a report from the Centre for Research on Anti-semitism at Berlin's Technical University.

When the researchers submitted their work in October last year, however, the centre's senior staff and management board objected to their definition of anti-semitism, which included some anti-Israel acts. The focus on Muslim and pro-Palestinian perpetrators, meanwhile, was judged inflammatory.

"There is a trend towards Muslim anti-semitism, while on the left there is mobilisation against Israel that is not always free of prejudice," said one person familiar with the report. "Merely saying the perpetrators are French, Belgian or Dutch does no justice to the full picture."

Some EUMC board members had also attacked part of the analysis ascribing anti-semitic motives to leftwing and anti-globalisation groups, this person said. "The decision not to publish was a political decision."

The board includes 18 members - one for each member state, the European Commission, Parliament, and the council of Europe - as well as 18 deputies. One deputy, who declined to be named, confirmed the directors had seen the study as biased.

In July, Robert Wexler, a US congressman, wrote to Javier Solana, the EU's foreign policy chief, demanding the release of the study.

Ole Espersen, law professor at Copenhagen University and board member for Denmark, said the study was "unsatisfactory" and that some members had felt anti-Islamic sentiment should be addressed too.

The EUMC, which was set in 1998, has published three reports on anti-Islamic attitudes in Europe since the September 11 attacks in the US.

Beate Winkler, a director, said the report had been rejected because the initial time scale included in the brief - covering the period between May and June 2002 - was later judged to be unrepresentative. "There was a problem with the definition [of anti-semitism] too. It was too complicated," she said.

This week, Silvan Shalom, Israel's foreign minister, proposed a joint ministerial council to fight what Israel sees as a rise in European anti-semitism

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by HuckFinn

So it's "anti-semitic until proven not guilty"?

Yes, insofar as anyone absurd enough to insist that their country is "free from antisemitism" is clearly defensive enough and enough of a baldfaced liar that anything they say from that moment on should be treated as the kaka it's likely to be.

R.III

 

[Dr. Dr. Doktor]

From the FT article
"There is a trend towards Muslim anti-semitism, while on the left there is mobilisation against Israel that is not always free of prejudice," said one person familiar with the report."

Nameless accusation does not lead anywhere. If someone wishes to accuse the left of anti-semitism I would very much like that he would reveal his identity, so that one could know that there really is such a person making such an accusation. The defendant has the right to know who is making the accusation.

"Ole Espersen, law professor at Copenhagen University and board member for Denmark, said the study was "unsatisfactory" and that some members had felt anti-Islamic sentiment should be addressed too"

This man is clever. No use in making a 'special report on anti-semitic' attacks. Why not then make a report on attacks perpetrated against africans?

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Richard III
I'm at a loss as to how your existence proves that zionism wasn't a stupid idea. I'm sure you would have been born elsewhere... I don't regard my existence as proof of the success of British colonialism...?

No, I wouldn't have been born elsewgere. Three of my grandparents were in Israel during WW2. ALL their european communities were completely destroyed.

Originally posted by Richard III
Allow me to go back to the best portrayal I've ever seen of the genius of the Israeli idea, by the Onion in its fake "headlines from history" book:

...

Any idiot could have seen how slapping a state there would create decades of warfare, a notion proven by the fact that many idiots DID foresee that exact result and urged caution accordingly. Sure, you won all of those wars. Still happy to have racked up those bragging rights? I'm reminded of a brilliant work of satire I saw in the bookstore the other day by an Israeli officer called "how to win wars by losing them completely" or some such thing.

- You're forgetting that today isn't the world of 55 years ago. Arab countries of the time were very weak countries. The jews would've had to fight for a country no matter where it'll be. Might as well fight against someone we can win.
- Jews didn't choose Israel because they wanted to escape wars, they chose it because it's their land. Israel is an important part of the identity of the jewish people.
- Zionism started before any of the serrounding countries existed.

Originally posted by Richard III
As I've said, I don't deny Israel's right to exist now, nor do I deny Israeli citizens the right to life, and I'm now 100% - not 20%, or 50%, but 100% - against the existing Palestinian authority getting anything from anybody whatsoever; the most recent wave of attacks was the last straw for me, f*** 'em until they can prove that they understand that "nationhood" also equals "responsibility."

I won't answer that because that would be going too off topic, but just something you should think about on your own - Who is "them"?

Originally posted by Richard III
That's reality for today. But given what I know of the facts at the time, I can't help but be baffled as to how anyone could have seen Zionism as an intelligent policy solution to anything beyond the very very short term. And please don't suggest that Jews would have been exterminated in the last 50 years without Israel; arguably, Israel made that terrible prospect more likely by perversely making it easier to target large numbers of Jews in one central and controversial location. However much anti-semitism may still exist in Europe, Russia, and North America, it's pretty hard to suggest that there would be anything like the casualties Jews have suffered in the last 50 years if every Jew who moved to Israel hadn't done so.

R.III

Hate towards minorities is to a large extent a result of how many of them there are. Nearly all european jews were either killed or escaped to other places, so today there are few jews and as a result there's less antisemitism. There's no knowing what antisemitism would've been like had large numbers of jews kept living in europe.
And the fact is that Israel didn't make it easier to hurt jews - the entire losses of Israel in all the wars and all the terror attacks equal to two days of the holocaust. Today jews have an army to defend them against people who want to hurt them.