Dragonfabri
Chieftain
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Assyria with its 45xp + the other xp buildings seems the best to me later on, but i don't know if the % combat strength boni are better even later on.
Which Civ has the most military bonuses?
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Dragonfabri
Chieftain
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Shaka's reduced xp for promotions is quite big, plus the three great buffalo promotions.
But are they really better than +45xp for each unit right out of the gate later on?
Mongolia has the excellent khan, and while you go cavalry only, are they really that strong compared to other cavalry of the same tech? I mean Sweden has a more generic CS bonus for every land unit on attack, wouldn't that be better, paired with the improved Great General CS Aura than the Khan?
The Zulus undoubtedly have the most strictly military bonuses. The Songhai has better timing at everything, bonuses from turn 0 and a powerful economy from early tabya and faster workers coupled with movement bonus, so it is much better at doing stuff and enabling wars. Just a ludicrously bonus stacked on bonus on top of bonus.
In player's hand any civ with bonus related to xp gain, killing units and pillaging are much better than other (Zulus/Aztec/Denmark) as players are best at getting high lv units and playing scotch earth tactic.
UU got outdated slowly, bonus xp when created or bonus production doesn't matter since you won't be losing a lot of units thus not gonna build as much, flat CS bonus or better general also don't matter with the huge amount of bonus CS of high lv units.
UU got outdated slowly, bonus xp when created or bonus production doesn't matter since you won't be losing a lot of units thus not gonna build as much, flat CS bonus or better general also don't matter with the huge amount of bonus CS of high lv units.
Dragonfabri
Chieftain
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I agree with the scorch tactic consideration, but not with the rest.
At Deity it's very hard to preserve all your units, especially if they are constantly needed to halt the AI endless waves. Not to mention those waves are not garbage like base civ, but actually decent formations you have to counter, outmanouver (not always possible) or grind out; the latter is impossible without losing units and replacing them.
So XP on unit production imho is VERY valuable, especially if stacked enough. +45 xp and barracks-like buildings allow for Range archers from the get go, which is immense in termse of defense. Same for March regarding melee in the offense.
CS bonuses are great equalizers in the hands of a human, but of course being on par with tech and promotions is more important.
Your issue would only happen if you played peacefully from the get go and only started to build up your army after mid game or when the AIs already on their way to attack. In Deity you have to get aggressive very early to get snowballing before AI bonus start kicking in (and preferably always in small skirmishes even if you don't want to take any city, solely for diplomatic boost and free xp) so by midgame you should already have more than half of your units leveled up with uber promotions and would keep them alive throughout the rest of the game to stack more.
The game is balanced around you having those elite units at late game (thus AI also has xp bonus - this is one of the feedback loop I'm trying to solve, having high level unit > too strong for AI to handle they needs xp bonus > player HAVE to grind to get high level units to compete > repeat), having access to a single tier 3 promotions by that time is practically nothing since AIs would have the same if not better units everywhere. If you lose those precious high level units you're practically already lose the domination game (and should be trying your luck at turtling up and close to some other victories).
The game is balanced around you having those elite units at late game (thus AI also has xp bonus - this is one of the feedback loop I'm trying to solve, having high level unit > too strong for AI to handle they needs xp bonus > player HAVE to grind to get high level units to compete > repeat), having access to a single tier 3 promotions by that time is practically nothing since AIs would have the same if not better units everywhere. If you lose those precious high level units you're practically already lose the domination game (and should be trying your luck at turtling up and close to some other victories).
Yeah, nerfing promotions would fix that. Or at least it's make less of an issue
chicorbeef
Emperor
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Personally, I think Sweden is the best pure military civ, it buffs a wide range of units and has very strong general combat bonuses (the healing + xp).
pineappledan
Deity
Assyria's XP bonus is pretty much their only combat bonus outside the UU, which is hard to quantify because it's a support unit. It also takes a while to stack, because you need to get 9 GWWriting to get the full bonus, so it's important to note that it's not just a free, automatic +45 XP out of the gate.
Zulu have 25% less XP to level up. In other words, all XP sources, including combat, are 33% more effective. For context, barracks/armory/military academies give 60 XP, which is equivalent to 80 XP on the Zulus.
Between Orders, Elite Forces, and Brandenburg, Zulu have possible access to another 45 XP (effective 60 XP), for a total of 105 XP, or an effective 140 XP. Jus looking at buildings, Zulus net between +20 to +35 on unit training buildings, which gets pretty close to matching Assyria's single bonus, but they also effectively get an +33% XP from combat that stacks multiplicatively with other sources of +% XP on top of that.
Just looking at the pure XP bonuses, I think Zulu take the prize, but they also have maintenance reduction for melee and access to a stronger melee promotion line that gives access to all leaf promos at the end.
Lastly, comparing the Siege Tower to the Impi is hard, but between a civilian unit that gives nearby units medic and a bonus to cities, and a tercio that attacks twice, I think the Impi is a bit stronger.
More than Assyria, I think Denmark is the runner up:
free promos and +25%
towards both naval and land melee units, big pillaging and movement bonuses, an excellent, supremely mobile, cheap, and strong UU. The Danish have a lot of military bonuses stacked on them too.
Zulu have 25% less XP to level up. In other words, all XP sources, including combat, are 33% more effective. For context, barracks/armory/military academies give 60 XP, which is equivalent to 80 XP on the Zulus.
Between Orders, Elite Forces, and Brandenburg, Zulu have possible access to another 45 XP (effective 60 XP), for a total of 105 XP, or an effective 140 XP. Jus looking at buildings, Zulus net between +20 to +35 on unit training buildings, which gets pretty close to matching Assyria's single bonus, but they also effectively get an +33% XP from combat that stacks multiplicatively with other sources of +% XP on top of that.
Just looking at the pure XP bonuses, I think Zulu take the prize, but they also have maintenance reduction for melee and access to a stronger melee promotion line that gives access to all leaf promos at the end.
Lastly, comparing the Siege Tower to the Impi is hard, but between a civilian unit that gives nearby units medic and a bonus to cities, and a tercio that attacks twice, I think the Impi is a bit stronger.
More than Assyria, I think Denmark is the runner up:
free promos and +25%
towards both naval and land melee units, big pillaging and movement bonuses, an excellent, supremely mobile, cheap, and strong UU. The Danish have a lot of military bonuses stacked on them too.
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Dragonfabri
Chieftain
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Yeah, Zulus are definitely the winners there. Denmark's definetly on the top tiers, since the pillage cs bonus is permanently on basically.Assyria's XP bonus is pretty much their only combat bonus outside the UU, which is hard to quantify because it's a support unit. It also takes a while to stack, because you need to get 9 GWWriting to get the full bonus, so it's important to note that it's not just a free, automatic +45 XP out of the gate.
Zulu have 25% less XP to level up. In other words, all XP sources, including combat, are 33% more effective. For context, barracks/armory/military academies give 60 XP, which is equivalent to 80 XP on the Zulus.
Between Orders, Elite Forces, and Brandenburg, Zulu have possible access to another 45 XP (effective 60 XP), for a total of 105 XP, or an effective 140 XP. Jus looking at buildings, Zulus net between +20 to +35 on unit training buildings, which gets pretty close to matching Assyria's single bonus, but they also effectively get an +33% XP from combat that stacks multiplicatively with other sources of +% XP on top of that.
Just looking at the pure XP bonuses, I think Zulu take the prize, but they also have maintenance reduction for melee and access to a stronger melee promotion line that gives access to all leaf promos at the end.
Lastly, comparing the Siege Tower to the Impi is hard, but between a civilian unit that gives nearby units medic and a bonus to cities, and a tercio that attacks twice, I think the Impi is a bit stronger.
More than Assyria, I think Denmark is the runner up:
free promos and +25%
In terms of not raw power but mobility)other advantages, Songhai's river roads is INSANE. I never played it personally but the AI pillaged my nether reaches way more times than i'd like to admit.
I will preface this that I am only considering military bonuses, that is, bonuses directly to waging combat. This is seperate from what I consider good for warring, which does include military bonuses, as well as secondary bonuses like science, gold, supply, production. This is just military bonuses, period.
There are four groups of military bonuses I weigh on when gauging on them.
1) extra promotions or bonuses that are available to all civs. Do units get extra promotions for free? Which units get them l? Assyria is a great example of a civ that gets lots and lots of extra promotions.
2) unique mobility bonuses. Are units faster than usual, or have more freedom of movement? Which unit types get them? Iroquois, with their improved movement through forests, is a good example of this.
3) unique actual combat bonuses. Does the civ have pure combat bonuses unique to them that stacks with everything else? Which unit types get them, and are they conditional? Denmark is a good example of this, with their unique Viking promotion greatly improving the combat strength of their melee units on land and sea.
4) unique unit power. Does the civ have a dramatically strong unique unit? Does the unique unit have a long life that carries good bonuses over to it's upgraded form? There are many examples of civs who can warmonger when their UU comes online, but my go-to example are the Netherlands with their Sea Beggars, who basically can dominate any coastal city in their window of time (which goes to Destroyers!?!)
The only two civs with all four is Zulu and Sweden, and I consider Zulu's to be stronger overall in terms of military bonuses. Sweden is really fun though, and a well timed great general can have such a dramatic effect. There are a bunch of close contenders as well.
As a quick and dirty ranking of my notes on the civs (definitely some map dependant issues in there and arguable points).
S tier - Has all four as major bonuses
A tier - Has three as major bonuses
B tier - Has two of then
C tier - Has one of them
D tier - the rest
S TIER
Zulu
Sweden
A Tier
Assyria
Denmark
Iroquois
Japan
Persia
Songhai
Mongolia
B tier
America
Venice
Ottoman
Poland
France
England
Inca
Huns
Greece
C tier
Polynesia
Aztec
Byzantine
Carthage
Celts
China
Korea
Indonesia
Netherlands
Rome
Spain
D Tier:
The Rest
Edit 1) I forgot America like a dumb dumb, Minutemen are fantastic and Scout I for land units, and for West Point, Splash I on all siege weapons. Thank you for the reminder Stalker.
There are four groups of military bonuses I weigh on when gauging on them.
1) extra promotions or bonuses that are available to all civs. Do units get extra promotions for free? Which units get them l? Assyria is a great example of a civ that gets lots and lots of extra promotions.
2) unique mobility bonuses. Are units faster than usual, or have more freedom of movement? Which unit types get them? Iroquois, with their improved movement through forests, is a good example of this.
3) unique actual combat bonuses. Does the civ have pure combat bonuses unique to them that stacks with everything else? Which unit types get them, and are they conditional? Denmark is a good example of this, with their unique Viking promotion greatly improving the combat strength of their melee units on land and sea.
4) unique unit power. Does the civ have a dramatically strong unique unit? Does the unique unit have a long life that carries good bonuses over to it's upgraded form? There are many examples of civs who can warmonger when their UU comes online, but my go-to example are the Netherlands with their Sea Beggars, who basically can dominate any coastal city in their window of time (which goes to Destroyers!?!)
The only two civs with all four is Zulu and Sweden, and I consider Zulu's to be stronger overall in terms of military bonuses. Sweden is really fun though, and a well timed great general can have such a dramatic effect. There are a bunch of close contenders as well.
As a quick and dirty ranking of my notes on the civs (definitely some map dependant issues in there and arguable points).
S tier - Has all four as major bonuses
A tier - Has three as major bonuses
B tier - Has two of then
C tier - Has one of them
D tier - the rest
S TIER
Zulu
Sweden
A Tier
Assyria
Denmark
Iroquois
Japan
Persia
Songhai
Mongolia
B tier
America
Venice
Ottoman
Poland
France
England
Inca
Huns
Greece
C tier
Polynesia
Aztec
Byzantine
Carthage
Celts
China
Korea
Indonesia
Netherlands
Rome
Spain
D Tier:
The Rest
Edit 1) I forgot America like a dumb dumb, Minutemen are fantastic and Scout I for land units, and for West Point, Splash I on all siege weapons. Thank you for the reminder Stalker.
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Based on your ranking system I would list America as B tier.
The minuteman has the ability to ignore terrain which gives it incredible mobility (criteria 2). The MM also has early accuracy I which leads to range promotion early in the game and carries over into their next tier of units (criteria 4). At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what cool military bonuses you have when I have a carpet of Ranged Gatling Guns mowing down everything that moves.
The minuteman has the ability to ignore terrain which gives it incredible mobility (criteria 2). The MM also has early accuracy I which leads to range promotion early in the game and carries over into their next tier of units (criteria 4). At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what cool military bonuses you have when I have a carpet of Ranged Gatling Guns mowing down everything that moves.
I actually forgot America how could I forget America I literally-
Oh I had to double check whether West Point gives a free promotion or not (it does).
As a note you are correct that America would be B tier (And I will update the list), but why is not quite correct. The criteria of 1, 2, and 3 are not based on individual Unique Units, and their own innate promotions, whether those promotions are more globally available. I think Minutemen are absolutely awesome and have an enormous impact for their long life as a UU, but the mobility bonus only applies on them. America does has a free +1 sight promotion on all land units (a borderline minor bonus, it doesn't quite improve combat or mobility directly), but more importantly West Point gives all siege units the Splash 1 promotion, which does qualify for 1.
KlHannibal2
Prince
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Interesting discussion.
Most military bonus in terms of number of bonuses I would say Sweden.
However, I would rephrase it to "best military bonuses".
I would rate the bonuses for their impact on winning in combat and for their reliability/conditions when they apply. I will not consider economic bonuses here that help winning wars.
I give the top spot to Songhai. While other civs have more raw bonuses or a higher number of bonuses, the Songhai bonuses are the biggest help in conquering. Using rivers as roads for all units and using enemy roads for mandekalus gives the best mobility of any civ. Paired with the flanking bonus of mandekalus and combined with ranged cav that counts as 2 flanking units, Songhai are among the best unit killers. But it does not end there. Mandekalus are also good for attacking cities. They can hit a city, move out to safety and avoid being killed on the AI's turn. And while other civs like Mongols have high killing power as well, they are hard stopped by rivers.
With Songhai, I managed to destroy the bulk of an AI army in 2 (!) turns (with 3/4 UC). The rest of the short war was cleaning up remaining units and taking cities. No other civ can match that.
I rank Zulus second. While they don't have the insane mobility of Songhai, they still have extra movement on infantry with their unique promotions and they have insane killing power with the impi spear throw.
While Sweden has a lot of bonuses as well, I rank Zulu higher. Sweden can accumulate more promotions on a single unit if things go well. But in a tough fight, when you lose units, Zulus can retrain a high quality army faster than Sweden who relies on GG births. And Zulus also get faster promotions on ships, while Sweden gets no naval bonuses.
Denmark is the best on water-heavy maps. But on the more widely used maps like pangea, continents, milae's, etc. their best bonuses matter in fewer situations than Songhai or Zulus.
Mongols are often ranked high. I have not played their current version. But with the old skirmisher setup, I found them more map-dependent than Songhai ot Zulus. Great in open plains, but suffering much more than the other two in chokepoints or around rivers. And no naval bonuses.
I don't rank Assyria among the top warmongers, more so when only considering direct military bonuses. Especially their xp bonus is not that great IMO. First, you need 9 works of writing for the full bonus, which is hard to get. If you consider at what stage of the game you would have how many works of writing, you get at most one extra promotion out of this bonus. 1 vs 2 promotions or 2 vs 3 is not a big deal IMO. 3 vs 4 makes a difference, especially for range on siege weapons. But by the time Assyria gets to 4 promotions out of the gate, other civs are not far from getting the same. With military academies, Brandenburg Gate and elite forces, you can get a lot of xp in industrial. And just with barracks, armories and orders, Assyria does not get 4 promotions even if they manage to get 9 works of writing.
Most military bonus in terms of number of bonuses I would say Sweden.
However, I would rephrase it to "best military bonuses".
I would rate the bonuses for their impact on winning in combat and for their reliability/conditions when they apply. I will not consider economic bonuses here that help winning wars.
I give the top spot to Songhai. While other civs have more raw bonuses or a higher number of bonuses, the Songhai bonuses are the biggest help in conquering. Using rivers as roads for all units and using enemy roads for mandekalus gives the best mobility of any civ. Paired with the flanking bonus of mandekalus and combined with ranged cav that counts as 2 flanking units, Songhai are among the best unit killers. But it does not end there. Mandekalus are also good for attacking cities. They can hit a city, move out to safety and avoid being killed on the AI's turn. And while other civs like Mongols have high killing power as well, they are hard stopped by rivers.
With Songhai, I managed to destroy the bulk of an AI army in 2 (!) turns (with 3/4 UC). The rest of the short war was cleaning up remaining units and taking cities. No other civ can match that.
I rank Zulus second. While they don't have the insane mobility of Songhai, they still have extra movement on infantry with their unique promotions and they have insane killing power with the impi spear throw.
While Sweden has a lot of bonuses as well, I rank Zulu higher. Sweden can accumulate more promotions on a single unit if things go well. But in a tough fight, when you lose units, Zulus can retrain a high quality army faster than Sweden who relies on GG births. And Zulus also get faster promotions on ships, while Sweden gets no naval bonuses.
Denmark is the best on water-heavy maps. But on the more widely used maps like pangea, continents, milae's, etc. their best bonuses matter in fewer situations than Songhai or Zulus.
Mongols are often ranked high. I have not played their current version. But with the old skirmisher setup, I found them more map-dependent than Songhai ot Zulus. Great in open plains, but suffering much more than the other two in chokepoints or around rivers. And no naval bonuses.
I don't rank Assyria among the top warmongers, more so when only considering direct military bonuses. Especially their xp bonus is not that great IMO. First, you need 9 works of writing for the full bonus, which is hard to get. If you consider at what stage of the game you would have how many works of writing, you get at most one extra promotion out of this bonus. 1 vs 2 promotions or 2 vs 3 is not a big deal IMO. 3 vs 4 makes a difference, especially for range on siege weapons. But by the time Assyria gets to 4 promotions out of the gate, other civs are not far from getting the same. With military academies, Brandenburg Gate and elite forces, you can get a lot of xp in industrial. And just with barracks, armories and orders, Assyria does not get 4 promotions even if they manage to get 9 works of writing.
Assyria and Mongolia are odd for the fact that their UUs are non-combat units who make combat better for their combat units. Mongolia has the Ordo and Kahn (which is a speed bonus and a free medic support) and Assyria has the rather large bonus combat versus Cities (that stacks with other bonuses) with the medic bonus. I kept hemming and hawing on my placement on them, but I ultimately settled on where they are because effectively once you reach their bonus, you are going to keep them practically for the entire game (I guess until bombers come around). I don't think a focused 20-40% bonus to attacking cities is quite best of the best material, but I can say in difficult offensive starts it has made the difference in cracking tough defensive civs. Damage bonuses that stack with everything (and negate city attack penalties) are a big deal, and that plus Assyria's steady consistent to unpredictably sharp global experience boost keeps it a relevant warmonger through the eras. Getting the tier 4s without having to depend on Brandenburg Gate, Orders, and/or Elite Forces opens up a lot more freedom in your gameplan on how your leverage your warmonger bonuses.
If there was an A+/A/A- on my list though? I would put Assyria on A- though. After all it's smarter to wipe out your opponent's army then take the city, then the other way around. So even a big city damage bonus isn't really that great of a raw damage steroid.
Won't argue about the Songhai it's why I rate speed on par with power. Songhai are fantastic at war because of their mobility. The only thing it doesn't have is the raw power anymore, but rivers are like highways to city centers, and even pre-UU Songhai can usually outmaneuver the civs they are invading in their own territory.
I used to have the same opinion on Denmark until I realized the combat strength bonus they get in pillaged tiles is a direct combat strength bonus, which is crazy bananas and definitely made me push them more into top tier. I think they only thing they lack compared to Sweden and Zulu are good global promotions to make them less situational, but like Sweden And Zulus they have mobility steroids and raw combat steroids, which is awesome for any warmonger.
Persia somehow still sinks below everyone's attention. In a GA, Global 15% cs bonus on everything, plus +1 movement on everything? Plus a great spearman UU? Persia has a boring but practical war bonus that scales real well through the ages. I think they suffer from being too much like Vanilla Persia.
If there was an A+/A/A- on my list though? I would put Assyria on A- though. After all it's smarter to wipe out your opponent's army then take the city, then the other way around. So even a big city damage bonus isn't really that great of a raw damage steroid.
Won't argue about the Songhai it's why I rate speed on par with power. Songhai are fantastic at war because of their mobility. The only thing it doesn't have is the raw power anymore, but rivers are like highways to city centers, and even pre-UU Songhai can usually outmaneuver the civs they are invading in their own territory.
I used to have the same opinion on Denmark until I realized the combat strength bonus they get in pillaged tiles is a direct combat strength bonus, which is crazy bananas and definitely made me push them more into top tier. I think they only thing they lack compared to Sweden and Zulu are good global promotions to make them less situational, but like Sweden And Zulus they have mobility steroids and raw combat steroids, which is awesome for any warmonger.
Persia somehow still sinks below everyone's attention. In a GA, Global 15% cs bonus on everything, plus +1 movement on everything? Plus a great spearman UU? Persia has a boring but practical war bonus that scales real well through the ages. I think they suffer from being too much like Vanilla Persia.
Denmark meh, the UU extra move is lost on upgrade, can be rough to have as neighbour pre gunpowder.
Sweden is strong in human hands but easily get rolled over because of bad/slow tech civ, requires careful choices as human to not fall behind too much.
Zulu is strong, I can get good yields from bullying which other warmonger civs lack.
Risk is I end up so far behind in tech tiers the combat bonuses are meaningless (which is why egypt and arabia are great warmonger civs).
As for military bonuses:
Zulu UA promo line is great.
Japan with samurai quick study is good.
Sweden is strong .... gg exp+heal, carolean (if you survive to this stage) and gg bonus are good depite toned down a bit.
French esprit de corpse is a good combat bonus in human hands.
The greek hellenistic (up to +25%) seems a bit unreliable.
Denmark pillage tile bonus is ok, it requires a lot of extra worker investment to fix the lands after a successful war (if you dont just raze).
Assyrian ... was along time since I played them, I need to test that one.
Sweden is strong in human hands but easily get rolled over because of bad/slow tech civ, requires careful choices as human to not fall behind too much.
Zulu is strong, I can get good yields from bullying which other warmonger civs lack.
Risk is I end up so far behind in tech tiers the combat bonuses are meaningless (which is why egypt and arabia are great warmonger civs).
As for military bonuses:
Zulu UA promo line is great.
Japan with samurai quick study is good.
Sweden is strong .... gg exp+heal, carolean (if you survive to this stage) and gg bonus are good depite toned down a bit.
French esprit de corpse is a good combat bonus in human hands.
The greek hellenistic (up to +25%) seems a bit unreliable.
Denmark pillage tile bonus is ok, it requires a lot of extra worker investment to fix the lands after a successful war (if you dont just raze).
Assyrian ... was along time since I played them, I need to test that one.
KlHannibal2
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2021
- Messages
- 512
What about Songhai?
I feel Egypt and Arabia are weaker now that skirmishers are more of a support unit than an independent damage dealer. Also, the war chariot got nerfed with a movement penalty.
Its about Egypt and Arabia being monster tech civs so if their UUs arent super good doesnt matter if you are on par or even ahead! in tech pre gunpowder.
Songhai is about mobility and not combat bonuses.
