Which Civ would you like in Colonization?

[fish6]

In my opinion the four countries in the original game represent the most powerful seafaring nations of that period fairly well. Adding more civilizations would probably only dilute the diplomatic aspect of the game and Firaxis probably has more good reasons not to add extra civs. So I'd say none.

If you really think that the game can't have more than four civs, then they should remove the Netherlands and replace it with Portugal. Portugal did much more in colonizing the Americas than the Netherlands, whose colonies do not even compare to that of Brazil.

 

[Dale]

If you really think that the game can't have more than four civs, then they should remove the Netherlands and replace it with Portugal. Portugal did much more in colonizing the Americas than the Netherlands, whose colonies do not even compare to that of Brazil.

Except your argument is flawed since the Netherlands settled half of Brazil (their South American capital was Recife for a long time) and a large chunk of what is now known as New York.

Aside from the fact that most of the Antilles islands were split between France and Netherlands.

So they did their fair share of colonising.

 

[fish6]

The Dutch did their share of colonization but Portugal's was definenatly longer lasting. The areas which you mentioned, Brazil and New York were lost to Portugal and Britian respetivley, and Portugal greatly expanded its control over Brazil. In regards to the Antilles, the Dutch played a much smaller role when compared to to the French and British. They may of had some islands, but France's Saint Dominique (Haiti) and Britian's Jamiaca and Barabados were the jewls of the carribean.

 

[Lubricus]

Even if Portugal had a successful colony in Brazil, the Dutch were a lot more involved in the European in-fighting. The Portuguese were, by the Treaty of Tordesillas, restriced to settle Brazil, and actually honoured that treaty. The Dutch were at least as successful as France as long as the country remained a major player in European affairs, but dwindled in the end because of other events. If historical accuracy is the goal, both nations, along with Denmark-Norway, should be in, but Portugal should have restriction as to where to settle. Which would, of course, be hard to implement - and make for a less interesting game for the Portuguese player.

 

[helpless_writer]

Pick which civs you would like in Colonization II (this is hypothetical).

I would seriously like to take the role of those whose land they invaded... like the native Americans, the Aztec, Iroquois and basically the victim of colonization

 

[vacceo]

I´d really love to see my neightbours (I´m spanish) in the game so well, my vote goes for Portugal.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

In my opinion the four countries in the original game represent the most powerful seafaring nations of that period fairly well. Adding more civilizations would probably only dilute the diplomatic aspect of the game and Firaxis probably has more good reasons not to add extra civs. So I'd say none.

Portugal had a mighty colonial empire, not least in the Americas. They were definitely more important in the New World as a whole than the Dutch.

In the manual for the original "Colonization" they mentioned that they had considered including Portugal but didn't because they thought. Perhaps they thought Portugal would be too similar too Spain. Actually, it wouldn't have been since Portugal also had colonies in Africa and was very active in the slave trade. But I suppose the people at Microprose felt that including slavery would mean opening a can of worms. In a way, that's a little strange, since they couldn't help but include the extermination of Indians, and since the creation of the New World also emphatically involved slavery. But there it was.

It may also have had something to do with game balance . And ethinc considerations: not that many American gamers of Portuguese ancestry, or Portuguese ones in Europe, to be heedful of in those days.

 

[blackhawkdown93]

haha: would love to see portugal in this game: prob didnt add it earlier cause the portuguese only colonised sth america, and the game is mainly based on nth america isnt it?: btw: if theres such an overwhemling support for portugal, shouldn't they add it into the game?, or do they have to make a mini-expansion for civ colonisation?

 

[Kublai_Khan]

Portugal had a mighty colonial empire, not least in the Americas. They were definitely more important in the New World as a whole than the Dutch.

In the manual for the original "Colonization" they mentioned that they had considered including Portugal but didn't because they thought. Perhaps they thought Portugal would be too similar too Spain. Actually, it wouldn't have been since Portugal also had colonies in Africa and was very active in the slave trade. But I suppose the people at Microprose felt that including slavery would mean opening a can of worms. In a way, that's a little strange, since they couldn't help but include the extermination of Indians, and since the creation of the New World also emphatically involved slavery. But there it was.

It may also have had something to do with game balance . And ethinc considerations: not that many American gamers of Portuguese ancestry, or Portuguese ones in Europe, to be heedful of in those days.

Portugal was united with Spain for a considerable period of the game's time span. After that period Portugal was neither a big player in the European political field, nor had it's colony a large influence economically. Calling this empire mighty grossly overstates its importance.

The game merely fields the greatest seafaring powers of the time in a struggle for the New World. Sure, The Netherlands claim on present colonies is small compared Portugal's claim, Brazil. The fact is, however, that Portugal was never in any large conflict with one of the other European powers at the time. It is likely that if the Netherlands hadn't played such a major role in the political conflicts of the time, Brazil probably wouldn't even speak portuguese nowadays, as the French and English attempts at colonizing Barzil would have been far more successful.

Furthermore I doubt leaving out the concept of slavery was the reason for leaving out Portugal, Everyone, including The Netherlands, dabbled in slave trading at the time. I also doubt the ancestry of the would-be buyers of the game played any role in including the Netherlands and not Portugal. If they wanted to sell the game it would have made more sense to include Germany or Italy, a lot more people of that Ancestry in the Americas then those of Dutch ancestry.

I, in conclusion, maintain that the four powers included in the game simply represent the most powerful seafaring nations, although in present times the cultural impact on the Americas of some of these nations may seem less than that of Portugal.

 

[SoonerNation]

Portugal was united with Spain for a considerable period of the game's time span. After that period Portugal was neither a big player in the European political field, nor had it's colony a large influence economically. Calling this empire mighty grossly overstates its importance.

The game merely fields the greatest seafaring powers of the time in a struggle for the New World. Sure, The Netherlands claim on present colonies is small compared Portugal's claim, Brazil. The fact is, however, that Portugal was never in any large conflict with one of the other European powers at the time. It is likely that if the Netherlands hadn't played such a major role in the political conflicts of the time, Brazil probably wouldn't even speak portuguese nowadays, as the French and English attempts at colonizing Barzil would have been far more successful.

Furthermore I doubt leaving out the concept of slavery was the reason for leaving out Portugal, Everyone, including The Netherlands, dabbled in slave trading at the time. I also doubt the ancestry of the would-be buyers of the game played any role in including the Netherlands and not Portugal. If they wanted to sell the game it would have made more sense to include Germany or Italy, a lot more people of that Ancestry in the Americas then those of Dutch ancestry.

I, in conclusion, maintain that the four powers included in the game simply represent the most powerful seafaring nations, although in present times the cultural impact on the Americas of some of these nations may seem less than that of Portugal.

Thank you very much for saying this, Kublai_Khan, this is exactly how I feel. It seems like Portugal is an influential player at the game's beginning (because of exploration and founding early colonies in South America), but after that there's really nothing going on with them in the New World.

 

[fish6]

@ Kubali Khan
The consinerable period of time which you suggested Portugal was under Spanish rule was 60 yeras from 1580-1640. The Netherlands declared independence from Spain in 1579. As the time range of colonization is aproximlatley from 1500-1800 that means the Dutch were actually under Spanish rule like than the Portuguese. The Portuguese were not weak as the defeated the Netherlands in the Dutch Portugese war of the early 17th century which kicked the Dutch out of Brazil. I don't understand how you don't consinder the Portuguese among the great sefearing powers if they had colonies in South America, Africa, and Asia, which obviously required a powerful navy to protect them

Though the Portuguese may have not been in many conflicts as their European counterparts it was not a sign of Portuguese millitary weakness, but rather smart diplomicy. Portugal allied with both France and Britian, and the kicked the Dutch out of the picture allowing them to colonize Brazil in peace.

You also claim that Portugal did not have a colony that was important finanically but that clearly was not that case. During the late 17th and early 18th century gold and latter diamonds were found in Brazil creating massive wealth for Portugal. Besides that Brazil was a large coffe and sugar exporter and had a diverse economy unlike many other colonies. Besides that, what important colony did the Dutch have? New York was lost to Great Britian so they were left with a few Carribean islands, which were econmicially insignafigant when compared to the French and British islands.

I see no good reason why Portugal was not included.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

@ Kubali Khan
The consinerable period of time which you suggested Portugal was under Spanish rule was 60 yeras from 1580-1640. The Netherlands declared independence from Spain in 1579. As the time range of colonization is aproximlatley from 1500-1800 that means the Dutch were actually under Spanish rule like than the Portuguese. The Portuguese were not weak as the defeated the Netherlands in the Dutch Portugese war of the early 17th century which kicked the Dutch out of Brazil. I don't understand how you don't consinder the Portuguese among the great sefearing powers if they had colonies in South America, Africa, and Asia, which obviously required a powerful navy to protect them

Though the Portuguese may have not been in many conflicts as their European counterparts it was not a sign of Portuguese millitary weakness, but rather smart diplomicy. Portugal allied with both France and Britian, and the kicked the Dutch out of the picture allowing them to colonize Brazil in peace.

You also claim that Portugal did not have a colony that was important finanically but that clearly was not that case. During the late 17th and early 18th century gold and latter diamonds were found in Brazil creating massive wealth for Portugal. Besides that Brazil was a large coffe and sugar exporter and had a diverse economy unlike many other colonies. Besides that, what important colony did the Dutch have? New York was lost to Great Britian so they were left with a few Carribean islands, which were econmicially insignafigant when compared to the French and British islands.

I see no good reason why Portugal was not included.

I agree completely. Though, as I said, it may have been due to balance considerations.

 

[SoonerNation]

I don't understand how you don't consinder the Portuguese among the great sefearing powers if they had colonies in South America, Africa, and Asia, which obviously required a powerful navy to protect them

The Portuguese no doubt had a sizable navy, but since we are talking about the New World, Portugal only had the area which is now Brazil.

New York was lost to Great Britian so they were left with a few Carribean islands, which were econmicially insignafigant when compared to the French and British islands.

I see no good reason why Portugal was not included.

The Dutch began settling North America in 1614 and maintained control of a large area (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/29/New_Netherland.PNG) until the 1660's. They didn't just colonize New York. They actually had several colonies in the Caribbean, even though many of them changed hands several times: Curacao (one of the great "free ports" of the Caribbean), Saba, St. Eustatius (another great "free port"), Bonaire, Aruba, St. Martin, the Virgin Islands, Tobago, Suriname, and Guyana. Many of these places were very ecomically important, incorporating plantations that grew many profitable cash crops like sugar.

I have a couple of theories as to why Portugal isn't included in the game:
1. The original Colonization didn't have Portugal.
2. The Portuguese only had one area that they controlled in the New World (Brazil), and weren't as vigorous in making other settlement attempts as the other four powers.
3. It might be too difficult to put Portugal into the game without it being too similar to Spain.

Just my opinions.

 

[Gelion]

I just realized why the original Col has these 4 powers: they were all participants in the Independence War of the United States!

 

[Öjevind Lång]

The Portuguese no doubt had a sizable navy, but since we are talking about the New World, Portugal only had the area which is now Brazil.

"Only the area which is now Brazil"? Have you ever looked at a map and seen how huge Brazil is? Incidentally, it also includes the Amazonas River, which makes the Mississippi look like a brook. I mean no disrespect to the Netherlands, but all they had was a colony in North America which the English very soon conquered, an area in present-day Brazil America which the Portuguese pretty soon annexed in a similar manner, Suriname and the rather insignificant Caribbean islands which still belong to them.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Even if Portugal had a successful colony in Brazil, the Dutch were a lot more involved in the European in-fighting. The Portuguese were, by the Treaty of Tordesillas, restriced to settle Brazil, and actually honoured that treaty. The Dutch were at least as successful as France as long as the country remained a major player in European affairs, but dwindled in the end because of other events. If historical accuracy is the goal, both nations, along with Denmark-Norway, should be in, but Portugal should have restriction as to where to settle.

Oh, I agree. They should only be permitted settle in the New World, like the other colonizing powers in the game.

 

[SoonerNation]

"Only the area which is now Brazil"? Have you ever looked at a map and seen how huge Brazil is? Incidentally, it also includes the Amazonas River, which makes the Mississippi look like a brook. I mean no disrespect to the Netherlands, but all they had was a colony in North America which the English very soon conquered, an area in present-day Brazil America which the Portuguese pretty soon annexed in a similar manner, Suriname and the rather insignificant Caribbean islands which still belong to them.

Yes, I have but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'll try and make it more clear: Yes, Brazil is a large area but much of it then was uninhabitable jungle. Just because they had claimed a large area of land doesn't mean that they were more powerful or more wealthy than any of the other four powers. Take England's colonies in America in 1750 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ritish_Colonies_in_North_America_c1750_v2.png). They most certainly didn't equal up to the land area of Portugal's colonies in Brazil but they were wealthier.

 

[Kublai_Khan]

@ Kubali Khan
The consinerable period of time which you suggested Portugal was under Spanish rule was 60 yeras from 1580-1640. The Netherlands declared independence from Spain in 1579. As the time range of colonization is aproximlatley from 1500-1800 that means the Dutch were actually under Spanish rule like than the Portuguese. The Portuguese were not weak as the defeated the Netherlands in the Dutch Portugese war of the early 17th century which kicked the Dutch out of Brazil. I don't understand how you don't consinder the Portuguese among the great sefearing powers if they had colonies in South America, Africa, and Asia, which obviously required a powerful navy to protect them

Though the Portuguese may have not been in many conflicts as their European counterparts it was not a sign of Portuguese millitary weakness, but rather smart diplomicy. Portugal allied with both France and Britian, and the kicked the Dutch out of the picture allowing them to colonize Brazil in peace.

You also claim that Portugal did not have a colony that was important finanically but that clearly was not that case. During the late 17th and early 18th century gold and latter diamonds were found in Brazil creating massive wealth for Portugal. Besides that Brazil was a large coffe and sugar exporter and had a diverse economy unlike many other colonies. Besides that, what important colony did the Dutch have? New York was lost to Great Britian so they were left with a few Carribean islands, which were econmicially insignafigant when compared to the French and British islands.

I see no good reason why Portugal was not included.

The Netherlands had been acting independent of Spain for a long time before 1579. Charles V, the father of Philip II, was born in the Netherlands and had more close ties to the low countries, then to Spain. So one could say that for some time Spain was actually ruled by a "Dutch" emperor. The schism between the two occured when his son Philip II decided to take action against the (protestant) Netherlands in 1568. It was only then that one could really speak of Spain, where Philip II was based, trying to dominate The Netherlands. Furthermore, during this period there still wasn't a lot going on in the New World. England hadn't even started a colony and France had just started exploring. The original game splits the timescale into spring and autumn after 1600 for a good reason...

The Portuguese colonies in Africa only started to become of importance in the 19th century, i.e. outside the game's period. The Portuguese colonies in Asia were mostly just trading ports and most of them were conquered by the Dutch after they were kicked out of Brazil...

When the Dutch where thrown out of Brazil, this was actually largely due to the help of Spain, of which Portugal was a part at the time anyway. The fact that Portugal was not involved in any major conflict simply underlines the fact none of the four powers considered them a real threat to their colonial ambitions.

Lastly, the massive wealth for Portugal caused by Brazil you are referring to never made the Portuguese into the economic powerhouse the other powers were. Portugal remained a relatively poor country after their independence from Spain, causing many Portuguese to immigrate to Brazil over the years.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Yes, I have but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'll try and make it more clear: Yes, Brazil is a large area but much of it then was uninhabitable jungle. Just because they had claimed a large area of land doesn't mean that they were more powerful or more wealthy than any of the other four powers. Take England's colonies in America in 1750 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ritish_Colonies_in_North_America_c1750_v2.png). They most certainly didn't equal up to the land area of Portugal's colonies in Brazil but they were wealthier.

Well, my sarcastic friend, it would be difficult to claim that Brazil was less wealthy than the Dutch colonies...

 

[Lord Chambers]

I would seriously like to take the role of those whose land they invaded... like the native Americans, the Aztec, Iroquois and basically the victim of colonization

There was a scenario for Civ3 which allowed you to do this. It was quite fun once you get past the fact the Inca are encassed in jungle and Aztec, water.