which civs would you add?

[Ribannah]

Ethiopia was an important maritime power for quite a while, with provinces on both sides of the Red Sea and controlling the trade in the region both on sea and on land.
Surely you have heard of the Queen of Sheba.

 

[The Last Conformist]

If more African civs are desired, what about one of the mediaeval/early modern West African peoples/empires, like Ghana, Mali or Songhai? Or perhaps the Hausa - their Sokoto Caliphate was one of the most powerful African states in the 1800s (and one of the last bastions of mass slavery).

Rather than bringing back the Carthaginians, I'd like to see a Phoenician civ that includes Carthage with colonies as well as the Syrian motherland. One of the traits should definitely be Commercial, the other perhaps Scientific. They should have Alphabet as one of their starting advances, at any rate.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

It would be nice to give the phoenicians credit for coming up with the alphabet and all, you are dead on LC about the Carthaginians (Punics=Phoenics).

Ribannah to be fair, while the Ethiopians claim the Queen of Sheba, the Ark of the Covenant, and descent from Solomon, many folks think that Sheba was Saaba in Yemen. However, the Yemenis and Ethiopians interacted so much and had mutual gods, alphabet, language, so I guess there is some point.

I was in Ethiopia in 2000 and can attest that what they have in the form of monasteries, castles, illuminated manuscripts, coins, history, liturgy etc. rivals anything in Europe.

And you do have to give America credit - not in my mind for the atomic bomb or the moon walk, either of which we could frankly probably do just as well without, but for the flowering of the democratic system and a belief in citizenship regardless of ethnicity which everyone everywhere else are either only just catching on to or are sadly against (including all of our middle eastern friends). And no question that American culture is so big it caused the Soviet Union to culture flip (all credit to rock and roll and none to the freakin cold war).

 

[Carver]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
I was in Ethiopia in 2000

My only trip to Africa so far was to Kenya in 2000/2001. But Ethiopia is #1 on my list of must sees.

caused the Soviet Union to culture flip (all credit to rock and roll and none to the freakin cold war).

Well that's an interesting way of putting it.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Carver, I was there for only a week but took in Addis Ababa, the Blue Nile Falls, and Gondar. It was bittersweet because they'd just had another war eruption against Eritrea and Addis was crowded with refugees. For amenities, Ethiopia makes Kenya look like Switzerland. But the people are wonderful, the place really mysterious atmosphere unlike anywhere else, the cuisine when it is available is unique (there are some restaurants in D.C., Houston, New Jersey) and delicious. I would love to go back with more time and more money and more friends (I was by myself en route to six months in Zanzibar).

Africa rules.

 

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Ribannah to be fair, while the Ethiopians claim the Queen of Sheba, the Ark of the Covenant, and descent from Solomon, many folks think that Sheba was Saaba in Yemen. However, the Yemenis and Ethiopians interacted so much and had mutual gods, alphabet, language, so I guess there is some point.

Yes, it's quite possible the Queen of Sheba came from the other side of the Red Sea - tales say she started out as little more than a servant girl with one of the many huge caravans going north - but Yemen was part of the Ethiopian empire.

And you do have to give America credit - not in my mind for the atomic bomb or the moon walk, either of which we could frankly probably do just as well without, but for the flowering of the democratic system and a belief in citizenship regardless of ethnicity which everyone everywhere else are either only just catching on to ...

Not quite. In daily life America still has a lot to learn about equality, NW Europe is clearly ahead in that field.
And democracy flowered much more convincingly with the Iroquois, Irish and Icelanders, if you ask me.
It's patriotism, rather, that is the flower of America.

The Soviet Union did not culture flip, the government collapsed which made it split into many tribes - classic Civ2 stuff.
It was rather the poor economy that ran the old burocrazy into the ground. I don't think there was much cultural influence from 'decadent' America, the nearby example of a prospering Western Europe that became blatantly visible thanks to modern television was far more important.
They still have a long way to go from where they are now on the path of social engineering, if they intend to mimic the west, the same goes for social and cultural values.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Ribannah, this is begining to move "off topic" but I wanted to respond to your last message. I am myself quite liberal and I applaud what "northwest Europe" has done - most of their countries rank above us in terms of personal freedom. I am not so sure I would say that their concept of equality ranks with ours. Yes there are descrepencies in America but the fact is you simply don't have large communities of diverse ethnicities in Denmark, Sweden, etc. - maybe a bit more Holland or England but the fact is those countries went through the traditional path of being a "folk" first, then conquering and then accepting in other peoples. Whereas America was quite mixed very early on and a hundred years into our nationhood we had a show of equality for everyone. And to this people all over the world watch that show - in Africa America is not seen as the patriotic monster, Europe is - in Africa America is the land where there are movies with black stars and black people making music and appearing as doctors and businessmen on tv. While we were experimenting with freedom and equality northwest Europe was experimenting with genocide and tribal warfare.

No our democracy is not perfect (may have ceased to exist at last election) but the idea of it is.

And if you think the Soviet Union wasn't looking at AMERICA's blue jeans and American rock and roll (as transliterated by Paul McCartney...) and just who rebuilt and supported Western Europe after WW2 anyway? Who knows whether Soviet economy would have worked - I suspect Gorbachev liked what he saw in our direction.

 

[Evie]

Yeah, true, I mean, throughout the first half of the nineteenth century (up to the sixties or so, era in which large chunks of the development in Africa took place), America did a lot of experimenting with equality in tobacco production and all that. *rolls eyes*.

"All slaves are born equals...".

Spare me.

 

[Baron Scot]

No our democracy is not perfect (may have ceased to exist at last election) but the idea of it is.

even as a republican, i can agree with that 100%

this really has nothing to do with anything, but i just watched a documentary on TLC about african pyramids, very interesting. i would have thought that the purpose was the same as the egyptians.

it suprised me to see the queens were seen as equals. i think that is advanced social condtions in that time

 

[Reboot]

Let's face it... US is in because Civ is a US game. The history of the United States is kind of short for it to be called a "Civilization". However, the game reflects its time in that the US is the dominant power and cultural influence on the world stage.

If Israelites are in, then Arabics must be in - this is a political consideration. As mentioned in my first post it may be too sensitive a topic one way or the other.

Btw:
1. Suppose that the Israelites are in... what UU will they have? (Leaders would most likely be David, Solomon?)

2. Suppose that the Ethiopians are in... what UU will they have? (Leaders would most likely be Sheba)

I think the first issue of selection of Civ would be the UU, leaders, and whether anyone would play them. Thus, the Inuits probably won't make it.

 

[Doc Mahem]

First, let me qualify my statements by saying I am an American, and I'de die for my country.

(ahem)

America shouldn't be there.

Many of the civs represent peoples that could be divided into several different nations, nations which often warred against each other. Greece, China, the Arabs (if they're in PTW), and all the European nations. I think the key to defining a civ is cultural and foriegn policy unity. That's why Greece is Greece, and not Athens + Sparta + others. And that's why America should be considered part of England. Our policy decisions in regard to third parties are virtually identical, and culturally we're very similar.

So if America is part of England in civ terms, then Canada sure as hell is part of England. They still consider the Queen their soveriegn, fer Christsakes.

That said, civs which should be added:

Spain
Mongols
Arabs
Incans
Vikings
Anasazi
Cambodians
Ethiopia
Celts (I was heartbroken to see them removed from civ3.)

civs which should be removed:

America

France a/o Germany (both can be considered Germanic. I think only one or the other should be represented.)

Zulus (what'd they ever do, civ-wise?)

 

[Shabbaman]

Zulus are definitely in! Besides from the Play the World civ, I think it's a pity that there is no Dutch civ. (would be nice to pick on philippe with it anyway)

 

[acjvanv]

Originally posted by Doc Mahem
France a/o Germany (both can be considered Germanic. I think only one or the other should be represented.)

Yes, this is a good idea! Let`s remove both France and Germany, both their UU`s suck anyway, and replace them by Portuguese, Spain and Holland.

Come to think of it, Naval warfare should definately be improved, there are so many nations that have used this strategy in the past. The Dutch, English, Portuguese but also the Vikings (if they are included) became powers of the world by using their `seafaring` abilities.

 

[BCLG100]

i dont think that we should remove france and germany but i do think we should include more civs with sea faring abilities e.g. vikings and portuguese and possibly the dutch

 

[Portuguese]

Originally posted by Doc Mahem
First, let me qualify my statements by saying I am an American, and I'de die for my country.

(ahem)

America shouldn't be there.

Many of the civs represent peoples that could be divided into several different nations, nations which often warred against each other. Greece, China, the Arabs (if they're in PTW), and all the European nations. I think the key to defining a civ is cultural and foriegn policy unity. That's why Greece is Greece, and not Athens + Sparta + others. And that's why America should be considered part of England. Our policy decisions in regard to third parties are virtually identical, and culturally we're very similar.

So if America is part of England in civ terms, then Canada sure as hell is part of England. They still consider the Queen their soveriegn, fer Christsakes.

That said, civs which should be added:

Spain
Mongols
Arabs
Incans
Vikings
Anasazi
Cambodians
Ethiopia
Celts (I was heartbroken to see them removed from civ3.)

civs which should be removed:

America

France a/o Germany (both can be considered Germanic. I think only one or the other should be represented.)

Zulus (what'd they ever do, civ-wise?)

I agree with many things, but 2 things I'd like to add:
- France+Germany= Sacred Empire, or anything from the 1000 years they had been connected
- Where is PORTUGAL????? It's incredible like the first globalized people is forgot in these type of discussions. At least from East Timor you must have eard about...
DON'T YOU NEVER ASKED YOURSELF WHY DO PORTUGAL HAD A ISLAND ACROSS THE WORLD, WHO SPEAK PORTUGUESE FOR CENTURIES???

 

[Portuguese]

Not including Portugal, makes CIV very incomplete. If you had studied European History from 15th and 16th centuries, you are supposed to know that Portugal rulled the seas for those two centuries, like dutch, spanish, english and americans since then. CIV lacks the first 3 and puts the last one, what I have now discovered even patriot americans agree to be a little... too patriotism from Firaxis. But the Americans being there is not so bad: if they had rulled on a specific period (1914-2002+), it's ok. But the lack of the other 3 makes CIV lack a significant impact in history.
CIV is very unfair, and I don't understand why do you never noticed the lack of these 3 (Portugal, Spain and Netherlands) very important CIVs in world history...

Hopping to know why...

 

[acjvanv]

I agree Portuguese: UK an d US are only in for commercial reasons. With the English I can live, but the Americans are a mix of all kinds of people. The Dutch once owned New York and traded it for Surinam and still the names of many American cities and streets are derived from the Dutch language. Same goes for Brazil being Portuguese.

 

[BCLG100]

no england are in for a lot more than that they also settled in america and at one point owned nearly a quarter of the globe

 

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
While we were experimenting with freedom and equality northwest Europe was experimenting with genocide and tribal warfare.

I think a lot of Amerind tribes will get a funny feeling after this statement, just like the survivors of Nagasaki and Hirosjima.
And please do discriminate between the different countries in Europe. Not ALL of us did the things you say, just as America is not the pinnacle of good.

No our democracy is not perfect (may have ceased to exist at last election) but the idea of it is.

I beg to differ. First, the idea of democracy is not your property. It was not an American invention at all, and intially your idea of democracy was that only SOME people could participate: the white males. Second, the concept of democracy is far from perfect. Eventually we will develop better systems of government.

... and just who rebuilt and supported Western Europe after WW2 anyway?

The Europeans rebuilt their own countries, thank you. You provided us with some first necessities and some investment money, for which we were thankful, but we did all the work ourselves. It was also an exception. Over the years, Europe has given much, much more foreign aid than you ever did.

 

[Baron Scot]

it would be rather amusing if they dropped america from civ. i dont think it is for commercial reasons either. they do have recent contributions to the world, good or bad

Nuclear weapons
landing on the moon
spread of democracy
stealth technology