Which son of Abraham did God ask him to sacrifice?

According to the arguments, which son do you think Abraham was asked to sacrifice?

  • Ishmael

    Votes: 6 13.3%
  • Isaac

    Votes: 39 86.7%

  • Total voters
    45
fact is the current version of the torah is at leaast a 1000 years older then the quran.

Do you have a reference for that? If so, I'd like to read more about it.

Also, even if the above is true, that doesn't mean it wasn't changed before that point. For example, if we play a game of broken telephone and the word we start with is "Donkey," it matters very much if the second, third, fourth, etc. person in the chain of transmission changes the word (mistakenly or deliberately) to "Monkey." Even if the game continues on for 2300 years after that point and every further transmission is correct (ie: every person hears "Monkey" instead of some new word, like "Munchy"), it still doesn't mean that the word is the same as the one we began with.

On the other hand, if a different game of broken telephone is played, and the word "Donkey" is retained from beginning to end, even if the game lasted 1300 years instead of 2500+, the end result is that the word is still the same, "Donkey."

Consider the same thing regarding revelation from God. Just because one form of revelation has stayed the same (and can be proven to have stayed the same) for longer than another, the question is whether or not it is identical to the original revelation. This is the case for the Qur'an but I don't believe anyone has conclusively made the argument regarding the Torah/Old Testament. In fact, some go so far as to argue that it developed and changed over time. Here is a relevant section in Wikipedia:

Classical rabbinic writings offer various ideas on when the entire Torah was revealed. The revelation to Moses at Mount Sinai is considered by many to be the most important revelatory event. According to datings of the text by Orthodox rabbis this occurred in 1280 BCE. Some rabbinic sources state that the entire Torah was given all at once at this event. In the maximalist belief, this dictation included not only the "quotes" which appear in the text, but every word of the text itself, including phrases such as "And God spoke to Moses...", and included God telling Moses about Moses' own death and what would happen afterward.

Other classical rabbinic sources hold that the Torah was revealed to Moses over many years, and finished only at his death. Another school of thought holds that although Moses wrote the vast majority of the Torah, a number of sentences throughout the Torah must have been written after his death by another prophet, presumably Joshua. Abraham ibn Ezra and Joseph Bonfils observed that some phrases in the Torah present information that people should only have known after the time of Moses. Ibn Ezra hinted, and Bonfils explicitly stated, that Joshua (or perhaps some later prophet) wrote these sections of the Torah. Other rabbis would not accept this belief.

The Talmud (tractate Sabb. 115b) states that a peculiar section in the Book of Numbers (10:35 — 36, surrounded by inverted Hebrew letter nuns) in fact forms a separate book. On this verse a midrash on the book of Mishle (also called Proverbs) states that "These two verses stem from an independent book which existed, but was suppressed!" Another (possibly earlier) midrash, Ta'ame Haserot Viyterot, states that this section actually comes from the book of prophecy of Eldad and Medad. The Talmud says that God dictated four books of the Torah, but that Moses wrote Deuteronomy in his own words (Talmud Bavli, Meg. 31b). All classical beliefs, nonetheless, hold that the Torah was entirely or almost entirely Mosaic and of divine origin.

In contrast, modern historians conclude that the origin of the Torah indeed came from this time-frame, but developed in different strands, which were eventually redacted together sometime around 400 BCE, the time of Ezra the scribe. These beliefs are accepted as correct by Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism. Rabbis in these denominations have developed a number of theories about God and revelation which reject a secular interpretation of the documentary hypothesis, accept that the Torah was written by Moses and later prophets under divine inspiration, and which also strive to be in accord with historical consensus.


On the other hand, no one argues that the Qur'an was developed over hundreds of years, or revealed by anyone other than Muhammad (pbuh).
 

And its easier to keep something standardized when theirs no translation involved;) In comparison to say Shakespeare, the Bible has passed down quite intact.

There is also a big gap between a man who has disowned a son and one who hasn't. Which would be more likely to take the more severe step of killing a son?

Disowning an illegitimate son makes you want to kill your cherished son, Who you've been told by God will be the Father of Nations?

the point is not whether he was going to kill Isaac, We know he was going to kill Isaac, The point is whether or not he was psychotic.
 
And its easier to keep something standardized when theirs no translation involved;)

It's not that the Qur'an was never translated, rather it was never suggested that a translation was the Qur'an itself (since any translation fails to be the word of God) but rather an interpretation of the Qur'an. That's why the Qur'an is always seriously studied only in Arabic.

On the other hand, some Christians (and Jews) claim that their scriptures are the word of God. How a Christian can claim that the English King James translation of the bible could possibly be the unaltered, perfectly preserved word of God is totally beyond me :crazyeye:.
 
Forget it, its impossible to argue with the religionists circual logic.

"Its true"
"Why is it true?"
"Becuase its the word of god"
Why is it the word of god?"
"Becuase it says so"


*Head throbbing*
 
Since you don't really seem to be interested in a discussion of your OP (essentially you are saying the Quran is right, the Torah is wrong - so who is right...) I'll leave that, but:

On the other hand, no one argues that the Qur'an was developed over hundreds of years, or revealed by anyone other than Muhammad (pbuh).

The Qur'an was not codified until after Muhammed's death (during Abu Bakr's caliphate), prior to this Muhammed's teachings were not compiled and while the islamic tradition holds that nothing was added to Muhammed's teachings the very description of the process of codification:
III&E said:
The codification of the Qur’an (i.e. into a ‘book form’) was done soon after the Battle of Yamama (11AH/633CE), after the Prophet’s death, during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr. Many companions became martyrs at that battle and it was feared that unless a written copy of the entire revelation was produced, large parts of the Qur’an might be lost with the death of those who had memorized it. Therefore, at the suggestion of Umar to collect the Qur’an in the form of writing, Zaid ibn Thabit was requested by Abu Bakr to head a committee which would gather together the scattered recordings of the Qur’an and prepare a suhuf - loose sheets which bore the entire revelation on them [15]. To safeguard the compilation from errors, the committee accepted only material which had been written down in the presence of the Prophet (p) himself, and which could be verified by at least two reliable witnesses who had actually heard the Prophet (p) recite the passage in question [16]. Once completed and unanimously approved of by the Prophet’s Companions, these sheets were kept with the Caliph Abu Bakr (d. 13AH/634CE), then passed on to the Caliph Umar (13-23AH/634-644CE), and then Umar’s daughter and the Prophet’s widow, Hafsa [17].
implies that some of his teachings were lost or omitted... (some links: Institute of Islamic Information and Education (III&E) and abrahamic-faith.com)

Now of course this whole discussion is about the claim that while the Quran is the authentic revelation of the divine will, while the Torah is not and is a work of human authors - thus negating its "worth" in finding the true will of the divinity. This is not really open to discussion since of course jews and christians will not and cannot accept that their divine books are less worthy then the Quran and vice versa...
 
Disowning an illegitimate son makes you want to kill your cherished son, Who you've been told by God will be the Father of Nations?

the point is not whether he was going to kill Isaac, We know he was going to kill Isaac, The point is whether or not he was psychotic.
Correct - and since I don't believe in God, I'm going to go with the assumption that God telling him to do something was merely covering for what he did. You believe in God and you will buy the God-put-me-up-to-it story from Abraham, but not necessarily from somebody who throws their kid off the San Francisco bridge or a woman who drowns multiple kids in a bathtub.
 
If you don't belive in god its more sensible to assume this is a fable and was meant to teach, a metaphor, and not a true story, the same story also exists in greek mythology BTW.
 
If you don't belive in god its more sensible to assume this is a fable and was meant to teach, and be a metaphor, and not a true story, the same story also exists in greek mythology BTW.
Right, but the strength of it as a fable is weakened when the man in the fable has already disowned a son.
 
In your post, Ori you bring up one very relevant and important point. Unlike the Old Testament and the New Testament, the Qur'an was committed by many to memory. Even today there are millions of people worldwide that have the entire Qur'an memorized, many of them, non-Arabic speakers.

As a result, it was much easier than it could have been to reach consensus about what was in the Qur'an when it was compiled. You emphasized that "only material which had been written down in the presence of the Prophet (p) himself and which could be verified by at least two reliable witnesses who had actually heard the Prophet (p) recite the passage in question." This is indeed worth highlighting as it underscores the difficulty of including anything in the Qur'an that wasn't attributable to the revelation that Muhammad himself had.

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was around for 22 years after his revelations started, and it wouldn't be difficult to find two witnesses that had heard him recite (and therefore confirm) individual verses of the Qur'an which they found written on the miscellaneous items that the scribes had used.

What you describe makes it possible that a small amount could have been omitted, lost or overlooked, but doesn't mean that it must have been. What's more important is that this system prevented verses to be attributed to the Qur'an that had no basis in Muhammad's (pbuh) recitation.

The bottom line is, it's better to do one's best and follow the religion as best they can (in my opinion), than to throw up one's arms and say there's no way to be certain that every single bit, even the smallest bit, is there.

Also, to those of you suggesting that I'm not interested in discussion, I strongly disagree. I've learned a lot from this topic thus far, and have found many of the arguments presented regarding why Jews/Christians believe in Isaac to be the son mentioned enlightening.

If I was convinced that another religion was closer to the truth than Islam, I would adopt it in a heartbeat.
 
Again, the argument that Ishmael was "illegitimate" was addressed. Sarah even in the current version of the Old Testament asks Abraham to father a child with Hagar so that she can have children through her [Hagar]. According to the laws of the time, this means that the child would have been claimed by Sarah (and is therefore, completely legitimate).
I'm not going by old Jewish laws of pre-Moses time. I'm going by elementary Biology here. Ishmael is NOT biologically related to Sarah, Ishmael is only biologically related to Abraham and the Egyptian slave girl.

Going in further. Ishmael and his mother were expelled in order to make sure that Isaac would be Abraham's heir as explained:

"Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, have you not read the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, and the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman, was born according to the flesh: but he of the free woman, was by promise. Which things are said by an allegory. For these are the two testaments. The one from mount Sina, engendering unto bondage; which is Agar: For Sina is a mountain in Arabia, which hath affinity to that Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But that Jerusalem, which is above, is free: which is our mother. For it is written: Rejoice, thou barren, that bearest not: break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for many are the children of the desolate, more than of her that hath a husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he, that was born according to the flesh, persecuted him that was after the spirit; so also it is now. But what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free: by the freedom wherewith Christ has made us free." - Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Galatians 4:21-31 Douay-Rheims Bible

It's another argument altogether to claim that he was disowned, but ask yourself, do you really think that a prophet would treat his own son (Ishmael) in such a manner?
Ishmael is an illegitimate son to Abraham. I'm not Abraham here, but his wife was not to fond of Ishmael and the Egyptian Slave girl after Issac was born. It is infact that Abraham and Sarah DISOWNED Ishmael.

The proofs within Genesis that Ishmael is disowned by Sarah and Abraham.

"Cast out this bondwoman, and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with my son Isaac. And when Sara had seen the son of Agar the Egyptian playing with Isaac her son, she said to Abraham: 10 Cast out this bondwoman, and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with my son Isaac. Abraham took this grievously for his son. And God said to him: Let it not seem grievous to thee for the boy, and for thy bondwoman: in all that Sara hath said to thee, hearken to her voice: for in Isaac shall thy seed be called." - Genesis 21:9-12 Douay-Rheims Bible

And the rest of the story goes that The Egyptian Slave Girl and Ishmael were banished into the desert. For me, I rather trust scriptures that have been around longer than the Koran (Plus I don't see the Koran valid anyway).
 
I think you misunderstand the nature of the Qur'an. Muhammad (pbuh) didn't write it, every word that's in the Qur'an was revealed to him by the Angel Gabriel from God.

Stacmon, re-asserting your conclusion as a premise for your conclusion is absolutely nuts and is irrational. If one text says Ishmael was out of town, and the other says he wasn't, you automatically conclude he wasn't 'because the Quran said so'?

There's no real objective reason to believe what Muhammad said at all.

You wanna know the objective nature of both holy books? The Torah was a collection of stories written by men (not by God), and the Quran was dictated by a man who just may as well have been telling his 8th century warrior clans what they wanted to hear (because I'm sooo sure God has an irrational fear of dogs :lol: ). In your defense to the claim of the Quran being divine, all you do is cite facts about the Quran that don't actually answer whether it was made precisely from God or not. That's kinda like hedging, man.

So maybe we all should just disagree to agree regarding the Issac thing? I think that's all there's really to talk about. Although frankly, I never actually heard this question before. The main question I overhear was 'why?'
 
The Qur'an was not codified until after Muhammed's death (during Abu Bakr's caliphate), prior to this Muhammed's teachings were not compiled and while the islamic tradition holds that nothing was added to Muhammed's teachings the very description of the process of codification:

implies that some of his teachings were lost or omitted... (some links: Institute of Islamic Information and Education (III&E) and abrahamic-faith.com)

I might be missing something, but it seems possible that the current Qur'an might be a document that's missing segments of a (putative) complete Qur'an which might have existed. We don't know if all of Mohammed's Qur'an was recorded.
 
Stacmon, re-asserting your conclusion as a premise for your conclusion is absolutely nuts and is irrational.

I think you and others are misunderstanding me when I talk about the Qur'an being understood to be the word of God.

The reason I bring this up isn't to say "I believe it's the word of God, so therefore everything in it must be true."

Instead, I mention that because it is a departure from the belief that other religions have about their scriptures. What I mean to say is, any deficiency found in the Tanakh(Old Testament) or New Testament could be attributed to the writers making errors, someone corrupting the message, mistranslation (whether intentional or not) and so on.

The Qur'an can't make this same argument because it claims to be the word of God (rather than inspired by God) and has been preserved to this day (unlike the texts of other religions). That means if it does contain errors, then the whole religion of Islam can be discarded (God could not make errors). So this is why I have repeatedly stressed the point.

Sorry if I wasn't clear on that from the beginning, but I just want to point out that I'm not trying to use circular logic in any way, I'm just trying to say that the nature of the Qur'an is very different.

Hope this clarifies things.
 
The Qur'an can't make this same argument because it claims to be the word of God (rather than inspired by God) and has been preserved to this day (unlike the texts of other religions). That means if it does contain errors, then the whole religion of Islam can be discarded (God could not make errors). So this is why I have repeatedly stressed the point.
However in contrast, I believe that the Holy Bible, The new and the old testiments are to be the words of God that were written down by people inspired by God. I dont see the Koran (Qur'an) divinely inspired nor is it the word of God in my eyes and thus I dont see the Qur'an valid and just a book (Much like how Atheists see the Christian and Jewish Sacrate Scritpures)
 
However in contrast, I believe that the Holy Bible, The new and the old testiments are to be the words of God that were written down by people inspired by God. I dont see the Koran (Qur'an) divinely inspired nor is it the word of God in my eyes and thus I dont see the Qur'an valid and just a book (Much like how Atheists see the Christian and Jewish Sacrate Scritpures)

That's obviously understandable, and I expect the same is true for pretty much all followers of other religions (otherwise, if they believed in the Qur'an, they'd likely be Muslims :lol:.)

It's the same way I believe neither of us put much stock in Scientology :crazyeye:.
 
It's the same way I believe neither of us put much stock in Scientology :crazyeye:.
So Muslims too believe that Scientology is just a big crock pot? :D
 
I disagree. Islam applies to a person's intellect and rationality. There are so many Islamic/Qur'anic scholars out there because they're constantly studying the Qur'an and Sunnah (sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh).

The purpose here is an honest attempt to "find the truth," or at least determine what is most likely to be the truth.

If one side makes a much better argument than the other, pointing out (possible) inconsistencies or errors, it weakens the foundation upon which a faith is based and makes it more likely that a person will find "the right way."

Speaking only for myself, I can honestly say that I would rather hear/read criticisms and adjust my beliefs (or change them completely) than to live in blissful ignorance and pay for it later on (assuming that an afterlife exists ;)).
I find this to be rather insulting in its insinuations. The Jewish tradition is based on commentary and study, our clergy are rabbis, literally "teachers." The rabbinic tradition of commentary is one thing that no faith can match, not even Islam. In traditional Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) society in fact the man is expected to spend every living moment he can learning and studying so much so that many do not have full time secular jobs and rather their wives earn the living as well as care for the children. Additionally, to suggest that Muslim commentary is inherently more rational than rabbinic is nonsense. The vast majority of the great rabbis were not only commentators, but scientists. Many of the greatest advancements in astronomy, mathematics, and physics were made by rabbis.
 
Same thing with Christian monks. People like Gregory Mendel discovered many great things that have since become foundations of our sciences. Personally, I think that it's difficult, to say the least (and probably impossible in fact), to decide which religion is the most logical or scientific. Of course, we all know that it is the Cumberland Presbyterian Church (created in the Great Revival of 1800) section of the Presbyterian denomination in America. :)
 
That is true, but there is still a much deeper tradition of commentary and interpretation in Judaism than in Christianity. One can feasably read all of the great Christian commentaries within some decades, but that would be an impossibility in Judaism. Every great rabbi for the past 3,000 or so years has written at least one commentary on at least one writing, and then each of those commentaries has numerous commentaries on it, and then each of those commentaries has numerous commentaries, and then each of those commentaries has numerous commentaries....
 
I definitely agree to the commentary part. We visited our friends' synagogue (reform) for High Holy Days (or something like that). I was looking forward to hearing in depth Torah stuff. What I found was that they had members of the congregation doing commentary on commentaries of the commentaries of the Torah. I kid you not. Still, it is amazing the amount of scholarship and philosophy that went into the innumerable commentaries. Very enlightening stuff.

Back on to the topic... Admittedly, Christianity has not placed a huge emphasis on biblical commentary (although we have had a few famous biblical philosophers), but we have done the hard sciences. An amazing number (probably the majority) of concepts we take for granted were thought up by monks in monasteries. So I suppose that each religion has its own field of expertise.
 
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