Whip + Chop -> Win

[IronCrown]

I was referring to the "I can't be bothered to learn the game mechanics" attitude which is typical for the casual player.

I use slavery excessively only when I want to rush which I rarely do. In most games I whip some but often I do not whip at all. For example if I have few food resources in my starting location and do not feel immediate danger of being attacked, I rather let my city grow than whip it.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

As a "top level" (snigger) multiplayer, I chop and whip alot, particularly chopping, I rarely leave a tree standing...anywhere.

I like the suggestion that slavery and chopping only produces hammers for construction as slavery was useful for construction, not fielding armies per se, except that it freed up citizens to join the army.

In terms of balance in civ, if chopping and slavery were only useful for building construction it'd enhance the game considerably in my view and make other civics like serfdom worth considering.


How hard would it be to mod that?

 

[Kranden]

Slavery has been a standard practice for thousands of years, and some of the greatest wonders in the world like the pyramids were built by slave labor. However slave revolts show the real effect of harsh labor and ownership of a any group. The Jews eventually told the Egyptians to suck it and left (which I'm sure was a lot more bloody and violent than what was written)

 

[frob2900]

You can beat the game at much higher difficulties that noble without slavery.

Definitely. Uncontrolled worker automation and lack of focus is a much greater sin than not using slavery if you want to win higher difficulties.

I also agree that avoiding slavery by educated choice can be very useful, but it is hardly ever useful to avoid it without understanding why one is avoiding it.

 

[Sephlock]

Is there a way to tweak automated worker behavior like in Civ3? Like "Chop down every tree you can reach" or "build roads on every single tile in my empire"?

All I see is the option to have workers not replace existing improvements...

Hell, I'd LOVE a "repair duty" command that just tells them to automatically replace anything that gets destroyed...

And btw, does the "Build trade network" command make them replace your roads with railroads? I think it does, but I could have just hallucinated it -_-;.

 

[frob2900]

I like the suggestion that slavery and chopping only produces hammers for construction as slavery was useful for construction, not fielding armies...

..In terms of balance in civ, if chopping and slavery were only useful for building construction it'd enhance the game considerably in my view and make other civics like serfdom worth considering.

Yes, I concur. Very good suggestions!

 

[Tiberias]

Any given city only has so many forests to chop, you can use them for early production, late production, or not at all - it's a choice you make.

You can reduce a cities health by deforesting.

IMO, since it's a game, as long as the AIs also use the whip and the chop, then it's fair. It's not like players are gaining an advantage the AIs don't also use. Whether or not the AIs whip and chop intelligently could be up for debate.

The AI doesn't effectively whip and chop--that's why players use it so heavily, it gives them a significant advantage over the AI. As the game is currently implemented, "effective" whipping and chopping means whipping nearly every unit and building, and chopping down every last tree.

Using chopping and speeding construction has been around since Civ 1, but the introduction of the Slavery Civic has dramatically increased the frequency of rushing, since it's "cheaper" (since everyone has available population, as opposed to available cash.) Rushing construction used to be just for a critical Wonder, or for a defender in a threatened city, but it's now used over and over, unit after unit and building after building. That can't be what the designers envisioned.

extreme human cruelty+environmental degradation=conquer the world.

yah thats about right.

For the record, nobody has yet conquered the world . The Mongols got the closest, but they didn't chop down forests or use slave labor to train their horse archers.

As a "top level" (snigger) multiplayer, I chop and whip alot, particularly chopping, I rarely leave a tree standing...anywhere.

I like the suggestion that slavery and chopping only produces hammers for construction as slavery was useful for construction, not fielding armies per se, except that it freed up citizens to join the army.

In terms of balance in civ, if chopping and slavery were only useful for building construction it'd enhance the game considerably in my view and make other civics like serfdom worth considering.

How hard would it be to mod that?

Nice to hear someone actually admit that aggressive whip + chop is the only way to go to be fully competitive. Getting rid of the whip/chop for building units may be the best choice, although it would hamper the AI's favored method for rushing defense on threatened cities.

how did input those bullet points?

i know, nerd alert, but i'm curious nonetheless

There's a button for it (has three little black boxes alongside three lines), but the code for it is as follows:

[LIST]
[*]List Item 1
[*]List Item 2
[/LIST]

 

[QBurrito]

For the record, nobody has yet conquered the world . The Mongols got the closest, but they didn't chop down forests or use slave labor to train their horse archers.

Nuh-uh! Blighty got closer!

British Empire was 36.6 million km², Mongol Empire was 33.2 million km². So Blighty had the biggest empire, with a 3.4 million km² lead.

ref

 

[frob2900]

Getting rid of the whip/chop for building units may be the best choice, although it would hamper the AI's favored method for rushing defense on threatened cities.

Actually, that could be easily handled by implementing the slavery Pop->Hammers conversion as an XML string which modifies the current slavery calculation by a percentage,

so that e.g.

<iSlaveryBuildingHammers>100 (works as before)
<iSlaveryUnitHammers>50 (only 50% hammers when whipping units)

Example of a high level AI (perhaps Emperor or Immortal)
<iAISlaveryBuildingHammers>110 (AI gets 110% of the current hammers for buildings)
<iAISlaveryUnitHammers>90 (90% of the current for units)

[EDIT]

Nuh-uh! Blighty got closer! British Empire was 36.6 million km², Mongol Empire was 33.2 million km². So Blighty had the biggest empire, with a 3.4 million km² lead.

But the Brits chopped down all their forests in the 17th and 18th century, so they were using an overpowered strategy back then. Luckily chopping was nerfed in the Warlords patches, so that won't happen again

 

[Arqane]

I used to whip and chop, but now I'm reformed. I mostly only whip.

Oddly enough, Spiritual leaders are really the ones that benefit the most from whipping. They can counterbalance the unhappiness, and they don't lose the turn to get Slavery in the first place. You do realize you only save 2-4 turns per whip, plus all the problems that go along with it. Still, it has it's uses, especially for Wonders or Settlers, since timing is everything there.

Have you ever seen a National Park city? Especially Dutch? On average, all my tiles are giving 2 food, 2 production, and 5 gold, not counting bonus resources. 0 Health problems, 0 happiness problems, and about 15 specialists in the city to top it off. So you're pumping out a Modern Armor each turn, adding about 1000 research, and pumping out GP points like there's no tomorrow. Did I forget to mention Beaurocracy?

But that's only if you save your forests .

 

[Yakk]

I'm thinking of having chopping provide a temporary +5 hammer/turn bonus to the city for the appropriate number of turns. More chopping makes it last longer.

Whipping I'm going to move to Police State -- the Police States of the 20th century burned through millions of dead bodies.

Monarchy: +25% military unit production, that's it
Slavery: +1 happy per military unit, that's it
Serfdom: Added: -25% military unit production +1 hammer per farm
Police State: no +% military unit production, population rush allowed
Emancipation: no distance from capital costs

This makes the ancient era less about chop/whipping, and creates an alternative to state property for a large modern era empire. (The British Empire became Emancipated as it grew. The American Empire became Emancipated as it grew. Large communist states Emancipate their population when they become free.)

Thoughts?

 

[colony]

But that's only if you save your forests .

I'd rather have 300 odd free hammers at the start instead though, the Industrial/Modern Age is a long time away in 4000BC.

As for slavery I use that a lot too, maybe too much, if that's actually possible. I've always found it odd that you only ever make 1 face whether you kill 1 pop or 3 pop though, it doesn't quite seem right. I can't remember the exact mechanics of how it worked in Civ3, but it was very powerful in that too for different reasons (food not being corruptible being one IIRC).

 

[frob2900]

Monarchy: +25% military unit production, that's it
Slavery: +1 happy per military unit, that's it
Serfdom: Added: -25% military unit production +1 hammer per farm
Police State: no +% military unit production, population rush allowed
Emancipation: no distance from capital costs

Monarchy: Not all monarchies build large militaries

Slavery: No. Why should the army be able to pacify all segments of the population just because the state has implemented slavery?

Serfdom: Why less military production? The feudal system did include provisions for fielding large armies.

Police State: Rather, police state should give the happiness bonus for military units stationed in cities.

Emancipation: Why no distance from capital costs in an emancipated society?

 

[Optimizer]

Historically, slavery has existed in agricultural societies with low population but plenty of land, so that the ruling class could secure workforce. When population became more dense, land ownership became more critical.

I would give Slavery a food bonus, together with lower unit maintenance.

 

[Bluewolf]

Native Americans loved 'mother earth' and didn't do a lot of slavery (to my knowledge) and look how far that got them...

Don't go calling me racist... I'm civilization-ist....

 

[Kranden]

Cut down everything in your path! Trees be damned! IF you crush 4 or so civs around you before the modern age one of them is bound to have some trees that you can turn into a national park.

 

[IronCrown]

Quite true. In all my BtS games I have built the NP in a conquered city. I don't think it's wise to spare the forests around your early cities only for that reason, unless you have very few food resources and need the forests anyway for health.

 

[Kranden]

I find the AI is a lot less willing to chop than I am. and some cities especially tundra ones tend to have almost all their forests intact.

 

[Optimizer]

Native Americans loved 'mother earth' and didn't do a lot of slavery (to my knowledge) and look how far that got them...

Don't go calling me racist... I'm civilization-ist....

Many pre-columbians had slavery, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_slavery and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Canada

 

[Yakk]

Monarchy: Not all monarchies build large militaries

Sure -- but I just made building the military take a bit less time. It is a perk, probably worth changing government types over eventually.

Slavery: No. Why should the army be able to pacify all segments of the population just because the state has implemented slavery?

The labor force of your society is slavery based. Military might is used to keep the slaves pacified.

Most importantly, whipping is too powerful for an early civic like slavery. The +happy only allows you to get it a bit earlier than with monarchy.

Serfdom: Why less military production? The feudal system did include provisions for fielding large armies.

If you are using farms, +1 hammer grants more than enough bonus production to pay for the -25% military unit production.

Police State: Rather, police state should give the happiness bonus for military units stationed in cities.

The unique factor of Police States has been their tendency to mass slaughter their civilian population -- be it in the Russian Gulags, the Nazi death camps, or the Chinese cultural revolution.

It is also a late enough game technology that population rushing doesn't break the game.

Emancipation: Why no distance from capital costs in an emancipated society?

It matches the real world -- large, far-flung empires tended emancipated their labor force. It also produces a natural compliment of large free societies and large state property police states that dominated the 20th century geopolitics...

But most importantly, it helps bring balance to the civic column.