- The Roman Empire
- Imperial China
- The Spanish Empire
- The British Empire
- Tsarist Russia
Whip + Chop -> Win
- Thread starter Tiberias
- Start date
Ex-Cop
Warlord
Pyramids were NEVER build using slave labour. EVER. Hollywood is not real history. Neither is CIV. Both are for entertainment purposes.
Now just whip chop and win.
Now just whip chop and win.
I'd tend to agree. I'm pretty sure you're right that they weren't built primarily by slaves.
Slaves in the ancient world were AFAIK not really "expended" like in CivIV for massive projects, but rather employed for the duration of their lives performing a given task in service to their masters (the Great Wall, as the Pyramids were products of feudal like systems).
Still, I like the idea of whipping my CivPopulation to death to build something inane like a Henge. So don't take that away from me
Yes
I guess that depends on your definition of "slave" doesn't it? I cannot imagine that the builders had the option to look the Pharaoh in the eye and say "no"
.Well, given the shortness of lifespans back then (biblical accounts notwithstanding) and the number of years per turn in the early game, I'd say thats about right, no? I mean, unless the slaves are allowed to breed while working (wouldn't they be too tired?)...
Still, I like the idea of whipping my CivPopulation to death to build something inane like a Henge. So don't take that away from me
That made me laugh out loud. And not a short "ha", but a real, full laugh, complete with broad, full smile.
If there really is a hell, I am SO going there -_-;.
Yes, you are quite right. I have no doubt that in many cases living conditions and such were quite awful. I suppose I meant that by a technical definition the egyptian workers weren't slaves. Apparently the system was closer to the European feudal system (but don't quote me on that
)Also, lifespans were not much better in medieval Europe after slavery had been abolished and serfdom introduced. So I don't know.. distinctions are difficult to make.
Ex-Cop
Warlord
The current thinking is ( and I stress current thinking ) that the "workers" worked in planting season, paid "taxes" in grain which was stored in graneries and so forth and then during the flood season when the farmers were unable to toil the fields they toiled making the pyramids for their Pharaoh for his trip to the after life while being "paid" in grain, bread and Beer.
There are accounts recently unearthed from the workers lodging in Giza which support this hypothesis, as well as written records of people taking paid sick leave.
For instance one of the more memorable accounts is one dude getting 2 weeks off work coz his offspring ( doesn't specify boy or girl ) was stung by a scorpion.
Egyptologist have no idea what people whom didn't want to work on the pyramids did though, if they even existed.
Ofcourse when we say "pyramids" we are referring to the Giza ones of king Cheops primarily ( or Khufu what ever you prefer). As we should all know there are hundreds of Pyramids in Egypt, but the most accounts refer to the Cheops one.
Many of us get Imhotep as the first great engineer in civ. This dude as I understand it was the guy who designed the first pyramid in Saqqara, the step pyramid. I think the pharaoh's name was zoser or something like that.
Anyway I hope most of what I said is right. Thats what I learned from the guides and Egypt library in my trip last year.
Please chip/chop in with any corrections as I'd like to learn if I was off some where.
I'm off to play civ as Hatty now.
There are accounts recently unearthed from the workers lodging in Giza which support this hypothesis, as well as written records of people taking paid sick leave.
For instance one of the more memorable accounts is one dude getting 2 weeks off work coz his offspring ( doesn't specify boy or girl ) was stung by a scorpion.
Egyptologist have no idea what people whom didn't want to work on the pyramids did though, if they even existed.
Ofcourse when we say "pyramids" we are referring to the Giza ones of king Cheops primarily ( or Khufu what ever you prefer). As we should all know there are hundreds of Pyramids in Egypt, but the most accounts refer to the Cheops one.
Many of us get Imhotep as the first great engineer in civ. This dude as I understand it was the guy who designed the first pyramid in Saqqara, the step pyramid. I think the pharaoh's name was zoser or something like that.
Anyway I hope most of what I said is right. Thats what I learned from the guides and Egypt library in my trip last year.
Please chip/chop in with any corrections as I'd like to learn if I was off some where.
I'm off to play civ as Hatty now.
Emancipated labor force?
- The Roman Empire
- Imperial China
- The Spanish Empire
- The British Empire
- Tsarist Russia
Primitive
Primitive
Primitive
Yes, the British Empire was Emancipated. British naval power broke the slave trade.
Primitive
Remember, Emancipation requires a relatively advanced technology.
Both The British Empire and the American Continental Empire where Emancipated.
Emancipation means that each worker owns their own destiny and is free to move to whatever project is best for them, without waiting for a chain of commands from the capital or from the rulers of the caste system. Sounds like a removal of a lot of inefficiencies of communication to me.
Where does the notion of "primitive" enter this? You said that "large empire have an emancipated workforce". Most large empires that ever existed were "Primitive" by your standards
And regarding your claim that the workforce in the British empire was emancipated.. I just don't know what to say
Where does the notion of "primitive" enter this? You said that "large empire have an emancipated workforce". Most large empires that ever existed were "Primitive" by your standards
They didn't have access to Emancipation as a civic option yet.
And regarding your claim that the workforce in the British empire was emancipated.. I just don't know what to say
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Lslavery33.htm
1807, slave trade outlawed in the British Empire.
1833, slavery in the British Empire outlawed.
The height of the British Empire is generally considered late 1800s to early 1900s, well after slavery was abolished.
This means the British Empire could have been:
Serfdom
Caste System
Emancipation
I suppose any 3 of those could be argued for.
JujuLautre
Deity
It's just a random idea, but if people want to nerf slavery, what about not giving an unhappy face for every slaving, but an unhappy citizen?
PimpyMicPimp
Regrets His Username.
A little off topic, but I've always wondered how chopping down a forest improves production. If anything, wouldn't you have to divert production to clear the forest? Especially early game, when it would be done by hand. Maybe it supplies would, but that won't help when your building a tank...
But then again, if you don't chop the forest you'll have to build that tank with the hammers you get from your marble quarry and cow pasture
Tiberias
Chieftain
Interesting thoughts, thanks for the responses. Historically (I know, Civ4 =/= history, bear with me), slavery was used both for cheap labor and subjugation of conquered populaces. It typically was not used for critical functions, such as for military units (no, slaves did not row in the military galleys--sorry, "Ben Hur") or for critical infrastructure such as monuments, because slaves were viewed as unreliable.
If I could change the civic, I'd modify it to have Slavery improve the build rate for Workers (I know, redundant with the leader trait, but immensely useful early on) and reduce unhappiness in conquered cities (they're still unhappy, they just can't do as much about it.) I agree with Yakk's suggestion on moving pop rush to Police State, which is where it really belongs.
It doesn't. The loss of forest is more a side effect than the objective. Actually, early societies cleared forests more for farming space than for lumber; even then, much of the wood was simply used for heating and cooking rather than for construction. The "mass chopping down of forests for mass production" thing is much more of an industrial/modern phenomenon than ancient era phenomenon. That's why I would propose drastically reducing the hammers from chops until Replaceable Parts or Assembly Line comes along.
If I could change the civic, I'd modify it to have Slavery improve the build rate for Workers (I know, redundant with the leader trait, but immensely useful early on) and reduce unhappiness in conquered cities (they're still unhappy, they just can't do as much about it.) I agree with Yakk's suggestion on moving pop rush to Police State, which is where it really belongs.
It doesn't. The loss of forest is more a side effect than the objective. Actually, early societies cleared forests more for farming space than for lumber; even then, much of the wood was simply used for heating and cooking rather than for construction. The "mass chopping down of forests for mass production" thing is much more of an industrial/modern phenomenon than ancient era phenomenon. That's why I would propose drastically reducing the hammers from chops until Replaceable Parts or Assembly Line comes along.
I actually would have agreed with you in the past, but have since learned that the civilizations that "chopped and whipped" everything in sight are the civilizations that built wonders. Stonehenge and the Moai Statues... Evidently Easter Island used to have huge forests with the worlds largest palm trees, but humans "clear-cut" the island using the timber to make boats and to make sleds to move the huge stones... After they destroyed their environment (from chopping) the island civilization collapsed. The Pyramids and the Great Lighthouse were build in much the same fashion... The "fertile crescent" used to be the best farmland in the world, now it's a wasteland due to human environmental destruction (deforestation, etc.) I do think that chopping forests should have a bigger impact on your cities health, just like in real life.
In real life timber was used as raw materials for buildings, to make lever/pulley systems, to make rope, to make tools... etc. The globe at one time was almost completely covered with forests, before people came along and started cutting them down. I think it's definately historicly accurate that civilizations, even the earliest civilizations, were benefiting greatly from chopping down trees.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
The notion that your entire population would be mdae of slaves is pretty ridiculous, though.
If anything, I'm thinking Serfdom and Slavery should have their effects switched around...
Slavery = Your population is supported in harvesting the land and resources by a large force of captured enemies or bought slaves. Hence, +50% worker speed.
Serfdom = the life of most of the population being for the ruling elite to use and throw away as they see fit, whether on massive construction projects (Great Wall/Pyramids), or in large but untrained armies. Hence, pop-rushing.
If anything, I'm thinking Serfdom and Slavery should have their effects switched around...
Slavery = Your population is supported in harvesting the land and resources by a large force of captured enemies or bought slaves. Hence, +50% worker speed.
Serfdom = the life of most of the population being for the ruling elite to use and throw away as they see fit, whether on massive construction projects (Great Wall/Pyramids), or in large but untrained armies. Hence, pop-rushing.
Flak
vBülletin Förum
I wouldn't know. I'll never use slavery and I'd never chop all the trees in my cities down.
Same here.
For Slavery, that's almost right on... But, give -1 Happiness to each city and +1 hammer for mines along with that, and you've got a very realistic Slavery civic.
For Serfdom, yeah, that about covers it... But, make farms generate +1 hammer as well.
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