Whither Islam

[mred00]

In my games, Islam never plays much of a role at all. Well before Divine Right is discovered, some the other religions have taken hold and no civilization is particularly interested in re-spreading a religion when they're already reaping the benefits of a previous one...Furthermore, for me, I can never wait until Divine Right before I want to start taking advantage of the money/happiness that religion can generate, so I never bother switching to Islam.

I was curious to know if/how it would be feasible to have a game where 2 or 3 civs actually adopted Islam as their state religion. Anyone had this experience?

(Also, Taoism also generally takes a back seat, but not always)

 

[DigitalBoy]

Taoism isn't always a minor religion for me, not if I can lightbulb it early enough.

Islam gets a raw deal though. Early religions get a huge advantage in not having to shell out hammers for missionaries, which can sometimes fail when early religions are already present.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

I agree. Confucianism and, less frequently, Taoism and Christianity can get a regional foothold, but Islam almost always has to be actively spread to compete. I can force Confu into world dominance when I get a mind to, but Tao, Christianity, and Islam are too much effort for me (and the AI doesn't spread their religions until late)

 

[bonafide11]

I agree. I think the problem is that they make Divine Right such an expensive tech that it takes too long for anyone to discover it. And since it's a dead end technology, I tend to have more important things to go for at the time. I don't really understand why you can't (completely) lightbulb Divine Right either. I would like to see Islam become more active... Taoism also tends to take a backseat as well for me...

 

[Horizons]

The advent of Islam in the game should spawn the rise of a barbarian chieftain who attempts to conquer the founding city's civilization and forcibly convert it to Islam.

Or then again maybe we could just remember that Firaxis were aware of religious differences and deliberately dumbed down the religious system to avoid causing offence to people.

This is one of the reasons why Civ needs proper scenarios. To act out real life, for example the religious wars and the fact that Hinduism and Buddhism didn't dominate the religious world for six thousand years.

It's either that or causing some poor folk offence. And you know how sensitive our dear humans are.

 

[largedarryl]

One of the options that could be added to reduce the overpowering of early religions is to greatly reduce that chances of religion spreading until you have discovered divine right (or even going as far as to move missionaries to a tech like divine right/theocracy). That way, all or most of the religions would be founded somewhere before they can easily spread.

I would suggest other ways, but they would require changing the effects of each religion, something that firaxis wanted to avoid. Mainly things to reflect the actual spreading of religion. This would require to make some of the earlier religions unable to create missionaries (or only have missionaries that can spread to your own cities). This would then be offset by making cristianity and islam easier and faster to spread with maybe half price missionaries.

Basically there are lots of ideas that could be used, but without making religions different than one another might be difficult.

 

[bardolph]

I think the best solution is to reduce the automatic spread of early religion, and perhaps give an extra missionary to the founder of Islam.

 

[Grenouille]

How about being given 5 missionaries if you discover Islam? That way, you can spread it quickly and make it worthwhile..

 

[Silver Marmot]

I don't think I've ever seen Islam adopted as a state religion.

 

[Legba]

I was curious to know if/how it would be feasible to have a game where 2 or 3 civs actually adopted Islam as their state religion. Anyone had this experience?

Usually when I got for a cultural victory, Islam is not a religion I go after unless I missed founding a few religions before that. When I have most of the religions, the civ that founds Islam often converts to it. Also, on isolated starts when I go for a culture victory, upon making contact with the rest of the world I find that they are usually all Islamic.

 

[Instant_Cereal]

Another problem with Divine Right is Free Religion, which comes shortly after. In my games it's always Christianity, Taoism, and Islam that move anywhere. I think one of the problems is how the game always assigns the holy cities to the weakest cities. For example, Brennus founded Islam in my recent archipelago game, but it's just one holy city restricted to a tundra city.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I don't think I've ever seen Islam adopted as a state religion.

I only remember on egame where Islam was significant.
I Isabella) was on an isolated continent and founded all religions except Hinduism and Islam, and then discovered two continents. One was only inhabited by Hindus and the other by Muslims.

 

[LucyDuke]

A large map with a lot of civs, or a map with a lot of continents (usually a lot of civs) will often make use of Islam. I've had games with many continents where nearly all the religions get a decent shake. A tiny Pangaea, though, is probably going to be mostly Hindu and Buddhist. It seems like the diversity is most when you don't have any zealots (Isabella) on the map, but that's just my impression.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Once many moons ago, I had a freak game where there was me and 6 other civs on one continent, all hating each other and constantly at war, yet with no religion.. All the other world religions had been founded elsewhere by nations we knew nothing about.

Every time I went for a religion I was just nipped at the post, but I decided that our continent needed some relgion to tie us together, and after somehow getting a great prophet I used him to speed to divine right, and founded Islam around 1250 AD. By 1500AD, it was by far the most widely spread in the whole world, and our continent was at last at peace.

So unusual, but not impossible, if you really make sure that you permanently have 3 active Islamic missionaries (the second one is used, start on another).But it definitely needs a large amount of isolation.

 

[mythmonster2]

For me, Taoism is Islam. It ALWAYS fails it's missionaries. However, I normally get Islam as a bonus to the Spiral Minaret.

 

[bonafide11]

I don't think I've ever had it and rarely ever seen any AIs accept it. But I kind of want to have it as a state religion just because I like the music for Islamic buildings and missionaries. And especially since I've heard it so little!

I can't stand adopting Hinduism anymore because I hate the music for spreading that. I guess the only religions I ever go for anymore are Buddhism, Confusianism, and Christianity. If I start with Mysticism and I want my capital to be a religious city, I always go for Meditation before Polytheism. I'll sometimes discover Code of Laws for the courthouses and Theology for theocracy. I never go for Taoism (I know it's a popular one, but I don't use Pacifism much and by then I usually already have a religion), don't go for Judaism (too expensive; requires Polytheism which I don't go for early, requires Masonry and Monotheism, which are both relatively expensive techs for their time, and the AI always finds Judaism too early), and Islam is too expensive and too late...

But all this talk about it makes me want to play Saladin, discover all late religions with his Madassas, convert to Islam, and win a cultural victory with my religious cities

 

[Duuk]

Personally, I think that religions should be founded by wonders rather than by just first-to-a-tech, and getting techs should allow the building of "Any One Religion". That way the AI could also be set to favor certain religions to make the game a bit more "realistic".

Although there is something supremely funny to me conquering the world until the banner of Taoism.

 

[Matrix]

In reality, other religions disappeared where new religions appeared. People in Mecca were mostly Jewish and Christian when Mohammed founded the Islam there; basically everyone converted to Islam, so there was hardly any Judaism or Christianity left after a while.

So I think it should be possible that a religion disappears when there is another religion/are other religions present in a city. Doesn't matter whether that are older or newer religions. And - thinking out loud - the only way to keep a religion for sure could be by building a temple.

 

[LucyDuke]

So I think it should be possible that a religion disappears when there is another religion/are other religions present in a city. Doesn't matter whether that are older or newer religions. And - thinking out loud - the only way to keep a religion for sure could be by building a temple.

I really like that idea. It allows religion to disappear without introducing the inquision element that a lot of people are turned off by.

 

[Tee Kay]

Seconded.

In my current game Napoleon did adopt Islam (I was the one who founded though) but only because he was stuck on an island surrounded by oceans and it spread there when I discovered Astronomy. He adopted Theocracy before I can spread my state religion (Confu) to him and that really annoys me.