Who agrees that Spiritual is a useless Trait and that Starting Mysticism is worthless

[wc3promet]

Who agrees that Spiritual is a useless Trait and that Starting Mysticism is worthless?

Disclaimer: None of my threads has anything to do with Single Player Civilization 4 games.

Spiritual is only good in grabbing up Religions, because you won't have anarchy during the change of religions and civics.

Now if they removed the 4 turns per Civics change limit, Spiritual might be more effective in providing the player with a better danger room.

 

[eiseike]

I found the spiritual leader trait quite useless..... I never like playing a civ that has such a useless bonus like that. > even India with its quick workers still I'm turned off by the spiritual trait. Maybe they need to patch something to make it more worthwhile

 

[random11]

Who agrees that Spiritual is a useless Trait and that Starting Mysticism is worthless?

Disclaimer: None of my threads has anything to do with Single Player Civilization 4 games.

Spiritual is only good in grabbing up Religions, because you won't have anarchy during the change of religions and civics.

Now if they removed the 4 turns per Civics change limit, Spiritual might be more effective in providing the player with a better danger room.

I find it usefull when you need flexability.
Instantly swiching to Theocracy + Nationhood in times of war.
Switching back to pacifism + Caste System if i want great people.
Then Serfdom just because i found some new resounces i need quickly.
Bureaucracy + Orginized Religion to give me the edge on wonders or space race.

Can any other trait do that without losing valuable turns on anarchy?

And of course, especially for multyplayer games: Slavery + Nationhood is a life saver to survive a surprise attack. and when you need this combination because of such an attack, you need it YESTERDAY, so no revolt is critical.

 

[tora911]

I find that when I play a race without Spirt, I will tend to wait till I have a couple of civics that I really want before I put my civ into revolt to switch it.

Example: Without Spirt, I won't switch my religion until after I have discovered Organized Religion as well. Saves me from two revolts right next to each other.

But if I do have Spirit, I'll switch Civs as soon as I get it and switch back to old civics during the needed times as stated by the post above.

 

[Thalassicus]

If it was 2 turn of anarchy for 3-4 civic changes, and 3 turns for 5, I think Spiritual would be more useful.

 

[MrCynical]

Spiritual is handy if you follow a strategy that involves many civic switches, e.g. lot's of very short wars. Starting with mysticism is also very powerful as is almost guarantees you'll get one of the first religions. Finally you have a very good chance to get Stonehenge, and a quick prophet from that, combined with an early religion can give you enough shrine income to run at max science for almost the whole game.

 

[DarkSchneider]

I agree that Spiritual is close to worthless at least, it is in the bottom 2 of possible trait picks in my opinion. However, Mysticism as a starting tech is critical in Monarch level difficulty games and higher. Starting with Mysticism, you are virtually guarenteed one of the two starting religions. Any growth past 3 pop in Emporer is impossible unless you luck out and get a luxury special resource or a starting religion. A shrine in a holy city should generally give you around 10 gp a turn in the early game, which adds up to quite a lot over the long run.

Anyone know a leader that gets Mysticism without spiritual.
IMO the best starting techs for Emporer are Mysticism/Mining and the best Traits are Financial and Expansive.

 

[Grogs]

Example: Without Spirt, I won't switch my religion until after I have discovered Organized Religion as well. Saves me from two revolts right next to each other.

How do you do that? I always get 1 turn for changing religion and 1 turn for changing to organized religion. Once I change 1, I'm in anarchy and can't change the other until the next turn, drawing another turn of anarchy.

 

[Thalassicus]

Anyone know a leader that gets Mysticism without spiritual.
IMO the best starting techs for Emporer are Mysticism/Mining and the best Traits are Financial and Expansive.

Huayna Capac is Financial and Aggressive, with Mysticism/Agriculture and Quechua (2/1 warrior replacement with +100% vs archers).

Mystisism and Mining would probably be too powerful in early game, allowing easy access to both religion and worker chop. Then with Financial you'd also get an advantage economically in the long run...so yeah

Mystisism and Agriculture is still very good, since Mining is easily obtained.

 

[Draax]

I like spiritual. It's not my favorite but I do like using it. It maximizes the effect of pyramids, and there's really nothing bad you can say about extra turns.

Also later in the game I've had anarchy over 2 turns when making changes to 3 civics or so.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Huayna Capac is Financial and Aggressive, with Mysticism/Agriculture and Quechua (2/1 warrior replacement with +100% vs archers).

Mystisism and Mining would probably be too powerful in early game, allowing easy access to both religion and worker chop. Then with Financial you'd also get an advantage economically in the long run...so yeah

Mystisism and Agriculture is still very good, since Mining is easily obtained.

The Indians get Mysticism and Mining. Making Ghandi the best Pyramid maker (faster tech to Masonry+Industrious trait)

 

[Grogs]

The Indians get Mysticism and Mining. Making Ghandi the best Pyramid maker (faster tech to Masonry+Industrious trait)

Plus fast workers to quarry the stone, improve the city, and chop-rush faster.

 

[TBox]

Well, Spiritual also gives you half-price temples, which might be useful if, starting with mysticism, you manage to snag all of the early game religions. Not sure what you'd do with it in a multiplayer scenario. I've heard it said that one temple is cheap anyways, but three or four of them? It adds up.

And switching to Nationhood+Slavery after a surprise attack is fun, but it's switching to vassalage 4 turns into the war that's even more fun, since you've probably decimated your cities by then with the draft/rushing. Then switching to serfdom to recover from the pillaging after the war is on enemy territory. Spiritual is a trait you really need to plan around.

Let me turn it around. If you don't like spiritual, how would you improve it to make it tempting? Add half-price monasteries? (MMm, science research.) Half-price missionaries? (To really capitalize on your half-price temples, early religion draws, and holy cities. Military bonus, too... even in multiplayer... if you can infect your opposition with your religion(s), the extra war weariness makes it harder to attack you. Although I don't really understand war weariness, maybe it's just not a big deal in the early-mid game, when multiplayer is usually fought.)

 

[Taelis]

Small multiplayer games don't last long enough to make use of spiritual+religions, or any other trait. All you need is a good early UU.

Try a continents/islands game and then tell me starting with mysticism is worthless.

 

[Napo981]

If you calculate that spirituality will save 3-4 turns of anarchy because that's the number of times you change civics/religion in a game, sure, it spritual trait isn't worthwile.

However, to take full advantage of spiritual trait you must change civic once you feel you have advantage to do so.

In many games without spiritual trait, I must balance benefits changing civic vs losing a turn, which means a lot of $$$ and hammers. Often, I wait to combine two civics to reduce anarchy turns.

With spritual trait, you can do whatever you feel is better for you. Often, it's switching fast between theocracy and organized religion which is the most profitable.

 

[Pbhead]

In a mulitplayer game if you start with mystism and the wheel(or another teck that quickly gets you to writing) and no one else starts with mysticism, you are almost garentited a monoply on religions. Since everyone wants a religion(for temples and religions civics and soforth) you get a lot of income from your religion monoply and if you buid the stone hinge wonder you get early great prophet for shrine $$$ FROM EVERY OTHER CIV!!!!

$$$=100%scince WITH TREASUREY INCOME!!= SUPPORT REALLY BIG EMPIRE!!!

 

[Thalassicus]

The Indians get Mysticism and Mining. Making Ghandi the best Pyramid maker (faster tech to Masonry+Industrious trait)

I should have clarified: if you had Mysticism and Mining, combined with the Financial trait, it would probably be too powerful. Both an early and late game advantage

Ghandi starts with Spiritual, which is arguably less game-defining than Financial. Generally the more powerful traits are linked with less powerful UU's or starting techs, and vice versa...he starts with Industrious, fast workers and Mystisism, so recieves one of the less powerful secondary traits.

Consider the Romans, for example. Their UU might be considered one of the best in the game, but to compensate they have the Expansive and Organized traits. If they were Aggressive and Financial instead, well...yeeeh

Pretty much all the leaders are balanced between traits, UU's, and starting techs. Except for poor people like Isabella, who get Expansive, Spiritual, and Conquistadors. Maybe that's why she's so...um... mad... all the time...

 

[Amourek]

I love Spiritual! I switch civics often depending on my strategy/needs. Instantly switching to Police State + Vassalage + Theocracy and kicking up the war machine without delay kicks ass.

 

[A+ombomb]

I have to agree that spiritual sucks, but since it happens to spawn on my favorite, Ghandi, I guess I'll just deal with it .

 

[jar2574]

I like mysticism. I don't like spiritual.

I think the Incas rock because of this. Get an earlier religion AND enjoy the benefits of Financial!