Who is primarily to blame? Israel or the Palestinians.

[civ2]

Gladi
The ignored thread killer

The IGNORED THREAD killer?
or
The IGNORED thread KILLER?

 

[boarder]

Pals are (and should be) called terrorists because they USUALLY attack civilians.

I agree that when they attack civilians they should be called terrorists because thats what they are, however they wouldn't feel the need to attack if they weren't in the situation they find themselves in due to Israel and its policies towards them. So while I would never condone it, I can understand they don't see any other way.

Also since there's no OFFICIAL war there right now - kidnaping even a soldier is a terrorist action cause it's NOT a war action..

While it may not be a official war, I have read lots of statements by IDF heads and Olmert himself (and Leah ) say that they are in a war, so its only a war when it suits your puropses?

I myself would call those using their nation's children for suicide bombing as nobody else but just PSYCHOS that should be locked away from society...

Agreed, children should never be used for anything, you won't get a argument out of me on that one.

I can say only one thing - until Pals stop claiming they want to annihilate Israel (which has nothing to do with their own state which they never really tried to achieve) - until then the best solution would be just put them all into isolation to "clear brains" (NOT "wash brains" but "clear" - to have enough undisturbed thinking) - so they would understand what they were offered and what they achieve by their foolish psychosis....

Yes I get a bit sick of hearing them call for the annihilation of Israel and it doesn't help any side, except maybe Israel. The rest sounds kind of bizzare to me.

I'm really upset by seeing so many immature people here who fail to count 2+2...

Well then I guess I am immature because 2+2 doesn't always equal 4. It is never as black and white as that.

boarder
I tried using wiki but didn't find a solid description of what terrorism exactly is

Never use Wiki for anything as its full of errors. Use a dictionary.

But when I use this word I mean someone that uses military actions against civilians outside of any war and not in self-defense.
Pals never had to be first to "defend" themselves (from WHAT??? from getting their state???) - and they attack civilians without any war.
Basically I think a terrorist should mean a psycho maniac with better ammunition and more "friends".
That's why I call Pals terrorists - and I think that's why most people do so

Ahh I think they see it as defending themsleves from Israeli aggression. You cannot oppress a people, take away there freedoms,rights,liberties, destroy there houses, murder them, there children, control every aspect of there lives and not expect them to resort to what they are doing. I know if I was in there situation I would have no problems fighting against Israel, actually if the situation was reversed I think that Israelis would do the same thing (if history of Israel is anything to go by)

Maybe you wanted to say Palestinians?
Well, they're a very young (about 60 years) group - nobody would miss them too much.

Well if thats what you really think then im afraid there won't be any peace.

But the very Land of Israel is one of the fundaments of Judaism - as a memory of the covenant between God and Patriarchs starting with Abraham.
If someone denies that - his Jewishness is doubtful.
I mean not specifically whether he's Jewish - but that he definitely lacks the real Jewsih education which includes the understanding of Israel.
One thing is to hear such nonsense from a non-Jew because he has no intrinsic connection with Israel and decides according to the geopolitical view (at best - or he just has an opinion based on nothing but his own imagination) - and another is to hear that from a Jew - a person who belongs to the nation that the Land was given to..

Ok now your starting to scare me. Forgive my lack of knowledge of Judism, but are you saying that Israel is right because god gave the land to you?
Sorry if you arent and im reading to much into it, but as a atheist I find this extreme fundamentalism well just plain crazy talk. Reminds me of my old boss who is a fundamentalist christian and used to say the devil put fossils into rocks to make us not believe in god and theres no such thing as fossils.
Thats crazy talk IMO.

You've just answered your question. It is called blackmailing - not exchange of POWs. Also, I still didn't hear about Gilad being visited by Red Cross, as required in POW treatment.

Ok so its blackmail and not terrorism, then lets not call it terrorism then shall we.

Boarder, tell me, do you really think that terrorists planned their action so good, that they knew that after digging tunnel for months they will come to standing alone israeli military unit????? I want you to try and explain me that.
Digging tunnels is their commonly used tactics to reach israeli territory. If they see opportunity to sneak-attack soldiers - they do that (matter of pride for them)..

Sorry I dont really get what your trying to say(its been a long day).
Ummm explain that they planned to grab a soldier? Maybe they did, I wasn't there, I was simply offering you a scenario, and as you weren't there either I doubt that you know for sure.
I guess going under and over is the only way since they can't go through anymore.
Oh and digging tunnels is a good strategy, it was used in ww1 to dig to the other trench and often blow it up from underneath.

Well, guess what, Hitler was great humanitarian, because there are several photos where he is kissing german kids.

Right stupid argument that barely justifys a response. I guess when you can't come up with a good argument that makes sense then you come up with something like that.

Sorry, your proposal is robbed of any logic and common sense (see Hitler example).

Lol you say my words are robbed of logic and common sense when i propose to use the truth in words and there meanings and not use them manipulate peoples thinkings, and you use hitler kissing a kid as a example.
Me robbed of logic? Good one.

You missed my point that "sonic boom" of the jet-fighter is a very polite response to Qassam missile which is targeting civilians.).

Well if it was the only response, then yes I would agree that its a polite response, but as its not the only response, they also invaded,shelled,cut off utilities,killed,destroyed homes, and created sonic bombs to scare young children then no I don't think its polite at all, that make you proud that you are scaring kids Leah?(not you personaly i dont mean that)
They are the truely innocent ones in all this,you think they have a choice when they are brainwashed from such a young age. They are taught to hate from when they are born from both Palestinians and by seeing what happens around them from Israel.

 

[nonconformist]

My answer is, of course, that for every airplane and helicopter given to Israle, one is given to Palestine.
It's guaranteed to end the suicide bombing.

 

[civ2]

boarder
It wasn't Israel that attacked anybody in 1948 - it were Arabs.
And since then it's Israel that is forced to defend itself until now - not Pals.
If you fail to understand that - well take a history course.
2+2=4 which means it a constant thing in our maths - agreemental.
Pals wanna destroy Israel with no actual reason other than simple hatred.
Otherwise they would have their developed country decades ago.
But they still live in "caves" and continue "defending" themsleves from Israel.
If they used all the money spent on warfare for upgrading culture/economics - they'd have a MUCH better life now.
And there would be no reason to fight Israel - they'd be happily living in their own state.
And, boarder, you ARE ignorant about Judaism and you "being an atheist" doesn't excempt you from ignorance.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Until both sides accept that assigning "blame" is not going to produce a way forward then both sides are guilty of perpetuating the problem.

It's a romantic and unrealistic view from someone not directly effected by the problems there, but it's a view none-the-less.

 

[civ2]

Prince
The problem is that Pals won't accept anything less then annihilation of Israel and Israel is not going to tolerate that.

 

[Gladi]

The IGNORED THREAD killer?
or
The IGNORED thread KILLER?

Ignored Killer

But, don't you think that somebody needs to do first step? And seeing as there is no Palestine...

The problem is that Pals won't accept anything less then annihilation of Israel and Israel is not going to tolerate that

Pals or terrorsits?

 

[boarder]

I realise Israels predicement in 1948 and subsequent years and as one who enjoys reading about warfare find it fascinating that they where able to defend themselves against such odds.
Yet I in no way see this as a excuse for your current treatment of Palestine and yes it is the palestinians who are in the postion of being a defender as they don't have any power and are treated like scum by Israel.
There are reasons why there is so much hatred from Palestines towards Israel as I mentioned in post just before. Its not them just wanting to kill jews cause they think jews are ****, well at least the extremists do, your going to get extremists in every side, dissapointingly some of your talk is pretty extremist imo.
They can't develop anything because its destroyed by Israel.
I very much doubt that what little money they recieve goes towards weapons, because most foreign aid was given so that it couldnt be used for weapons. (Although I am realistic about where aid usually ends up in corrupt nations)Until most donors stopped giving anything, due to democratic elections not going to there liking.
If Israel stopped doing all it does to them then they would not have a reason to attack Israel. Pretty simple.
Thats ok, I don't mind being ignorant about something that holds no interest for me. Religion is for people who need something to believe in that doesnt exist, so it makes it easy for them to believe in it rather than face reality.
If one is told something often enough from when they are born or are so lacking in other areas in other parts of there life its easy to believe in something if it fufills them then even if its plain crazy.

 

[boarder]

Until both sides accept that assigning "blame" is not going to produce a way forward then both sides are guilty of perpetuating the problem.

It's a romantic and unrealistic view from someone not directly effected by the problems there, but it's a view none-the-less.

And a well put view that I agree with.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

The problem is that Pals won't accept anything less then annihilation of Israel and Israel is not going to tolerate that.

There will always be extremists on all sides. It's an unfortunate fact of life. I doubt that all Pals feel the same. I imagine quite a few would much rather house and feed their family in safety. I imagine there are quite a few Israelis who want the same thing. Problem is the moderates, despite being the majority, rarely shout as loud as the extremists.

 

[civ2]

boarder
You stubbornly refrain from remembering who attacked whom in 1948.
A country of 1 day age can't be considered an aggressor in no way.
And if attacked by lots of irrelevant countries - it's nothing less than an obvious hatred-based war without any other reason.
The Arabs started the war and since then they never ceized it.
They only change tactics from open war to terrorism and back time to time.
If you can't digest this obvious thing - I can't help you any more.
And you do need help.

 

[boarder]

boarder
You stubbornly refrain from remembering who attacked whom in 1948..

Eh how did I do that,in my last post I was complimentary of Israel facing three countrys at once.

A country of 1 day age can't be considered an aggressor in no way.
And if attacked by lots of irrelevant countries - it's nothing less than an obvious hatred-based war without any other reason..

Yes but that was a long time ago now and you have the bomb and a brilliant army and airforce so you don't have to worry about that at the moment.
Irrelevant countrys? Your bias towards all and everything jewish is alarming.

The Arabs started the war and since then they never ceized it.

Well actually most have signed peace agrements with Israel since that time. And lets not forget that Israel has itself invaded 5 or so arab countrys, or did you not know this?

If you can't digest this obvious thing - I can't help you any more.
And you do need help.

Lol thanks for the concern but im sure ill be fine in my nice comfy succesful secure life
Edit,also dude you say god gave you your land and you say I need help hehehe your to funny

 

[Leha]

Ok so its blackmail and not terrorism, then lets not call it terrorism then shall we.

Not a problem. You can call suicide bombing "sporadic explosion" and not terrorism. You can call stabbing civilians "sword fight" and not terrorism. You can call launching Qassams into cities "military operation" and not terrorism. And of course you can call shooting at civilian vehicles "anti-tank operation" and not terrorism.
I'm not going to teach terrorist apologyst english lesson.

Sorry I dont really get what your trying to say(its been a long day).
Ummm explain that they planned to grab a soldier? Maybe they did, I wasn't there, I was simply offering you a scenario, and as you weren't there either I doubt that you know for sure.
I guess going under and over is the only way since they can't go through anymore.
Oh and digging tunnels is a good strategy, it was used in ww1 to dig to the other trench and often blow it up from underneath..

Tunnel digging gets months. No human person can know what will be happening on the other side after months. I have no doubt about it. I see you like idea of terrorists infiltrating into state of Israel and killing people.

Right stupid argument that barely justifys a response. I guess when you can't come up with a good argument that makes sense then you come up with something like that.

It isn't good argument because .....you can't find a good reply? Only call it stupid? OK

Lol you say my words are robbed of logic and common sense when i propose to use the truth in words and there meanings and not use them manipulate peoples thinkings, and you use hitler kissing a kid as a example.
Me robbed of logic? Good one.

So, tell me boarder, when did Red Cross member visited Gilad Shalit? C'mon, if those guys are not terrorists they are supposed to let Red Cross visit him, as it done in Israeli prisons. Don't you think so? Why did you omit this argument? Is it stupid?

If you want to use "truth in words", get out from NZ and stop maori genocide.

Well if it was the only response, then yes I would agree that its a polite response, but as its not the only response, they also invaded,shelled,cut off utilities,killed,destroyed homes, and created sonic bombs to scare young children then no I don't think its polite at all, that make you proud that you are scaring kids Leah?(not you personaly i dont mean that)
They are the truely innocent ones in all this,you think they have a choice when they are brainwashed from such a young age. They are taught to hate from when they are born from both Palestinians and by seeing what happens around them from Israel

Boarder. Don't drag me into usual "suffering palestinians" debate. When Israel withdrew from Gaza, noone was shelling,bombing and sonic booming. But Qassams never stopped and Hamas was elected. Get your facts straight.

 

[Leha]

There will always be extremists on all sides. It's an unfortunate fact of life. I doubt that all Pals feel the same. I imagine quite a few would much rather house and feed their family in safety. I imagine there are quite a few Israelis who want the same thing. Problem is the moderates, despite being the majority, rarely shout as loud as the extremists.

Well, in case you didn't know:

Kadima, whos agenda is two-state solution and who recognises Road Map got
29 seats.

Labor Party(I hope you know their agenda) got 19 seats

Shas-religious party (who agree to two-state solution) got 12 seats

Pensioners party, who align with Labor and Kadima got 7 seats

Meretz (left-wingers) got 5 seats

And....arab parties got 10 seats.

I imagine Israelis kinda love moderates more then palestinians, would you agree?

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

I imagine Israelis kinda love moderates more then palestinians, would you agree?

And what point are you trying to make? That there are more Israeli Moderates that Palestinian ones? I never said that there weren't. I simply said that the moderates need to be listened to more than the extremists.

You'll also note that I posted before that I hold a rather unrealistic view given that I'm an outsider. For that reason I've no inclination to get into such an emotionally charged debate with people who are effected by these things.

 

[Leha]

And what point are you trying to make? That there are more Israeli Moderates that Palestinian ones? I never said that there weren't. I simply said that the moderates need to be listened to more than the extremists.

You'll also note that I posted before that I hold a rather unrealistic view given that I'm an outsider. For that reason I've no inclination to get into such an emotionally charged debate with people who are effected by these things.

My point is: Current situation has nothing to do with extremists ruling in Israel. But it has everything to do with extremists ruling in occupied territories.

Edit: and it was related to your "Until both sides accept that assigning "blame" is not going to produce a way forward then both sides are guilty of perpetuating the problem."

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

My point is: Current situation has nothing to do with extremists ruling in Israel. But it has everything to do with extremists ruling in occupied territories.

Fair enough.
EDIT:

Edit: and it was related to your "Until both sides accept that assigning "blame" is not going to produce a way forward then both sides are guilty of perpetuating the problem."

Ok, then go give the Palestinians the kicking you think they deserve. They'll kick you back and we'll carry on for a few hundred years. That is perpetuating the problem. But it's your part of the world, do with it as you will.

 

[boarder]

Not a problem. You can call suicide bombing "sporadic explosion" and not terrorism. You can call stabbing civilians "sword fight" and not terrorism. You can call launching Qassams into cities "military operation" and not terrorism. And of course you can call shooting at civilian vehicles "anti-tank operation" and not terrorism.
I'm not going to teach terrorist apologyst english lesson..

And you can call attacking military installations terrorism but it won't make it so. But hey lets not let things like truth and facts and correct wording come into it.

Tunnel digging gets months. No human person can know what will be happening on the other side after months. I have no doubt about it. I see you like idea of terrorists infiltrating into state of Israel and killing people.

Oh thats right I forgot you think anyone who thinks that Isreal are one of the causes of its own problems wants to see Isrealis killed.

It isn't good argument because .....you can't find a good reply? Only call it stupid? OK

Right cause hitler kissing kids means hes nice is worthy of a reply

So, tell me boarder, when did Red Cross member visited Gilad Shalit? C'mon, if those guys are not terrorists they are supposed to let Red Cross visit him, as it done in Israeli prisons. Don't you think so? Why did you omit this argument? Is it stupid?

We both know the red cross didnt visit him and chances of it happening are slim. Are you sure that the red cross is allowed immediate access to ALL Palestinians in Israeli jails?
And once again I didnt say they werent terrorists personally but rather the attack of a military installation isnt a act of terrorism, and taking a soldier prisoner in itslef isnt terrorism to which you try to make it look like i like to see all israelis dead.

If you want to use "truth in words", get out from NZ and stop maori genocide.?

BAHAHAHAHA sorry but that is truely funny, as a part maori knowing the history of my ancestors I can honestly say there want/isnt any Maori genocide and the only Moari who think that are one or two extremists.
Do you realise how good we have got it in nz as maori? basically everything is free if you can show your tribe, and all this has done to our people is made them lack work effort, we also have the 2nd highest child abuse ratio in the world(deeply ashamed) high prison pop, welfare, over presented in all crime stats, high teen pregnancy and the list goes on, and all our so called leaders can do is to worry about how many millions we can get for nothing in the next settlement of land or anything else we can get for nothing, so dont talk to me about Maori genocide as it is non existant and used as a excuse by a very few people for the lackingness in our people when the real problem is we dont have to work for anything anymore it all gets given to us,
Or start a thread about Maori genocide and ill surely contribute.

Boarder. Don't drag me into usual "suffering palestinians" debate. When Israel withdrew from Gaza, noone was shelling,bombing and sonic booming. But Qassams never stopped and Hamas was elected. Get your facts straight.

Ah IIRC there was lots of palestinians killed by israeli forces after Israel withdrew from Gaza, was it 90 in the first 3 months after? (i forget the numbers)
While a good first step did you really think that if you keep oppressing and killing them it would suddenly stop? As well as the history that needs to be overcome, a but nieve if you did think that.

Edit Added a d to woring to make wording

 

[boarder]

Edit: and it was related to your "Until both sides accept that assigning "blame" is not going to produce a way forward then both sides are guilty of perpetuating the problem."

And if you cant see that then I doubt that there will ever be a solution

 

[Leha]

Right cause hitler kissing kids means hes nice is worthy of a reply

You have a problem with analogy?

We both know the red cross didnt visit him and chances of it happening are slim. Are you sure that the red cross is allowed immediate access to ALL Palestinians in Israeli jails?

Boarder, are you sure you are participating in discussion where you have at least tiny bit of knowledge?

And once again I didnt say they werent terrorists personally but rather the attack of a military installation isnt a act of terrorism, and taking a soldier prisoner in itslef isnt terrorism to which you try to make it look like i like to see all israelis dead.

And I once again tell you, it was terrorist act. And brought you arguments. Untill you prove it was legitimate taking of POW and treating of POW it will remain terrorist act.

BAHAHAHAHA sorry but that is truely funny, as a part maori knowing the history of my ancestors I can honestly say there want/isnt any Maori genocide and the only Moari who think that are one or two extremists.
Do you realise how good we have got it in nz as maori? basically everything is free if you can show your tribe, and all this has done to our people is made them lack work effort, we also have the 2nd highest child abuse ratio in the world(deeply ashamed) high prison pop, welfare, over presented in all crime stats, high teen pregnancy and the list goes on, and all our so called leaders can do is to worry about how many millions we can get for nothing in the next settlement of land or anything else we can get for nothing, so dont talk to me about Maori genocide as it is non existant and used as a excuse by a very few people for the lackingness in our people when the real problem is we dont have to work for anything anymore it all gets given to us,
Or start a thread about Maori genocide and ill surely contribute.

Sorry boarder, your arguments don't persuade me. I know more about maori genocide than you, forget it's you who lives in NZ, not me.
Again, leave NZ, and returm the land to Maoris!Give them their land back!

Ah IIRC there was lots of palestinians killed by israeli forces after Israel withdrew from Gaza, was it 90 in the first 3 months after? (i forget the numbers)
While a good first step did you really think that if you keep oppressing and killing them it would suddenly stop? As well as the history that needs to be overcome, a but nieve if you did think that.

Edit Added a d to woring to make wording

IIRC? Don't you think you assume too much? May be it is time to look at facts?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45627

http://www.arutzsheva.org/news.php3?id=95236