Why am I excited about this patch?

JingoMae

Chieftain
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Aug 7, 2013
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I've stopped playing Civilization before Gathering Storm, but after Civ #1 way back in the 90's. When I was advised that one of my traders overheard that Rome was trading with China...when I was playing as Rome...I knew this version of the game was in trouble.

As for the June patch: New yields, new ribbons, Canadian tundra farms now get three wheat and a free beaver pelt...blah blah blah... It all feels so inconsequential. Nothing in Civ VI seems to matter. And to further break the link of cause and effect that makes games enjoyable, they've added all this random leader nonsense; "Cleopatra doesn't like civilizations that install wall-to-wall mirrors in their bathrooms..." It's like someone decided that busywork would be a good idea for a game. Why is Papers Please so flipping engrossing and commanding an entire civilization from the stone age on feels like doing my taxes?

I don't see how any of the changes (known so far) are going to make this game fun. It's not a challenge, it makes no sense, (a city revolts and spawns 3 modern armor divisions? I guess they got them on ebay?), it's shallow where 6 versions in it should be deep and the AI has only mastered the A part.

Please, someone convince me that this is changing with this patch... That some aspect of what a few players think is fundamentally flawed with the game is being fixed... I want to get back into it so badly.
 
I think the game post GS was in a pretty good state overall. The changes in the next patch look like they’ll get rid of a lot of niggles and polish up some key mechanics. I mean, just the changes to Rams and Knights and Resources may radically improve combat and could end up the biggest buff to the overall game.

You’re welcome to disagree. I’m not going to spend energy convincing you otherwise - sorry. But if you do genuinely want a different point of view, there are plenty of posts over the past week explaining why people are excited.

You could also check out TheGameMechanic on twitch and or Potato McWhiskey. They both have videos going over the changed mechanics. They’re excitement is infectious.
 
It sounds like you want a very different game from a 4X historical board game, especially if your go-to comparison is a timer-based pattern-matching story-driven single player game.
 
some aspect of what a few players think is fundamentally flawed with the game is being fixed..
There will always be a few players that think the current version of a game is fundamentally flawed so it’s hard to validate based on your views when we can’t really see them.

The game is complex and probably becoming more so. If the elegance of simplicity is what you are after it is not the game. There is little point talking about the challenge of winning and losing, they have set the level of difficulty in general to low and they sort of indicated this in the patch when they said they have decided to make the AI act more like a human with regard to settling in the right spot. This however is a small step in the right direction of something fundamental.
A game is what you make of it and while it is not hard to win, some of the challenge people have adapted to how fast you can win. Playing with this attitude you realise the game has a lot of balanced nuances and there is much more choice in VI and making the right choice will shave a turn or two off victory. I am guessing you are more one of these types of people because you mention challenge.

There does seem to be more old timers picking it up and having a go and liking it but whether it is you I do not know. For me personally there is some fundamental RNG type issues with the game that have stopped me playing. We do not know all of what is in the patch so I cannot comment along those lines.

They do seem to have lengthened the game in the patch so it probably is more time investment meaning the game needs to match your desires more closely or it’s just going to be more frustrating.

No there is nothing concrete to convince you with a strong argument. If you are feeling the urge then why not try? Only you can judge what you like.

There is a lot of notifications still in the game and if this is your fundamental area, step away.
 
I gotta agree with the op.

  1. "the romans trade with China", tells the Roman spy. That problem is just about polishing, which they don't get the time to do because marketing wants to have new things to announce. So you should be excited that we're getting a patch and not another expansion.
  2. A city revolts and 3 modern armors spawn. That problem is about immersion. The system seem not to make sense in a historical sense of word. Gameplay Trumps realism, or the developers need to do something with the systems the currently have and can't or won't design something that fits better. There's not a lot in the patch for you here.
  3. It's just busywork. That problem is at the core of how the game was designed. That will not get better with Civ soon, as apparently, some people like it? I don't either, I never finish games even if I put things on automate since when I get back to an industrial era Civ after a reload, I've lost the overview and it's just "doing the taxes".
  4. My own sidepoint: it's about the UI. What I do see in this patch and may improve on the "busy" to a degree is that they now finally have turned their children yes on the User interface. And that is in this patch as well.
So you won't ever get your ideal game until another company takes over or at Civ 10 or so. But I've got my ideal Civ in my head as well, I just know I'll never get it.
 
Sorry. I’m going to ramble a bit. More than usual.

So, I’d been thinking I’d like to start a “state of the game” thread at some point, but wanted to hold off until the patch actually comes out.

My feeling is that a lot of criticisms of the game are maybe getting outdated. There was a great thread ages ago about how “tall v wide” is not actually a thing anymore. I think a lot of things are like that now. eg there are lots of posts about the AI, and I’ve been saying for ages that the AI isn’t really the problem, rather it’s the overall challenge or difficulty. I think this is born out by the June patch, which has a tonne of changes that look like they’re actually directed at difficulty not just the AI. I think this is a big deal because it really addressed underlying design questions about the game.

The game is also doing a better job of visualising its mechanics, which makes them more playable and makes the game deeper. Diplomacy is a great example - the old diplomacy system was fine, and was misunderstood by a lot of people, but the new system is much more intelligible and intuitive to many and that’s really great. Add in that Diplomatic Relationship Visualisation mod, and Diplomacy is way, way more interesting. I really think a lot of complaints about diplomacy are more about people not getting their head around it - but that’s why having diplomacy better visualised is actually the way to improve diplomacy.

I think the game still has gaps, but they’re pretty small in a way or at least not completely critical to the joy of the game. To me, the main gaps are: something a bit like Civ V social policies so you can actually tailor your empire’s world view and culture more, ie personalise your empire (Gov Plaza etc and Governors do this a little, but it’s not quite there; pantheons and religion do it better, but pantheons are a one time thing and not everyone founds a religion); a little more empire management particularly around gold; a slightly more fleshed out Info and Future Era (if we’re going to have a GDR, we should probably have a few other things to give that some context); and ideologies (which I think would be a good hook for the other things I just mentioned and also allow for more global conflicts and diplomatic blocks).

Yeah, there’s other stuff that still needs some balancing. I’ve repeated banged on about Coastals and Colonial Cities. @Victoria is right to call out RNG too, which is a bit off when it comes to disasters given how hard it can be to recover. I think some stuff around goody huts is also too RNG (eg free relics), although getting rid of Goddess of the Harvest and reworking Pantheons may help. But this list of stuff needing balancing is getting smaller and smaller, and the mods out there to address some of these issues are getting much better (precisely because the balance issues themselves are getting smaller).

Instead. What I think is becoming the real central question about the game is this:

The game is complex and probably becoming more so. If the elegance of simplicity is what you are after it is not the game. There is little point talking about the challenge of winning and losing, they have set the level of difficulty in general to low ...A game is what you make of it and while it is not hard to win, some of the challenge people have adapted to how fast you can win. Playing with this attitude you realise the game has a lot of balanced nuances and there is much more choice in VI and making the right choice will shave a turn or two off victory. ...

Two points. First, the game is getting much more complex. I do think there are still some really great big game loops built into the design of the game - but increasingly there are a lot of nuanced systems built on top of each other. Is that okay? Well, I think those layers have generally been really positive (although some editing wouldn’t hurt), but it does make the learning curve steeper.

Second, the way the game is designed, it is fundamentally easy to win if you’re willing to grind out victory. But it’s also getting much harder to win well, to play elegantly. (Fast victories and playing elegantly or efficiently aren’t quite the same thing, but are closely related.) In that sense, the game is actually getting harder. The AI does have some gaps - it needs to get better at pursuing its own victories, and there needs to be more real conflict late game - but if you are trying to play well, not just win, then the game is much more challenging.

So “easy to win, hard to play well”. Is that acceptable? I think it may be - indeed, I think this may be just the quid pro quo for having more nuanced mechanics - players can always ignore the nuances and brute force victory. Maybe that’s not really a problem. There are plenty of games that are “easy” to beat, but seriously hard to play well. That makes the game both accessible to knew players and rewarding to more dedicated players. But then again, maybe FXS could make the game hard to win and hard to play well - eg nerfing Rams and Knights is going to make the game much harder, because it potentially eliminates an easy strategy for victory. As it is, the old archer and swordsmen rushes have already got very hard to pull off.

I’m curious to see the full patch notes. I think there will be even more in those. I suspect there will also be lots of undocumented changes too. My feeling is that this patch will move the needle, although where it moves it to may be somewhere some people won’t like. I just don’t have time for people claiming the game is fundamentally flawed now - it’s increasingly obvious to me it’s actually very well thought out, but I think people sometimes aren’t getting what’s going on and some people maybe want something different (which is okay of course).

I’m also curious about how much more development the game will get. It is or is very close to being a “satisfying” game - is enough mechanics with enough polish to be a game you want to drop hundreds of hours into without feeling like things are limited or missing. But I also think the current design maps out some territory that Civ should explore and would make the game even better still.

God. So much ramble. I think it’s just I feel this year and this last patch have been a real watershed for the game. It’s finally at the point where it’s a game I really want to play, and that is just really exciting. (And, also, it’s Saturday and I’m bored / avoiding work, and chatting with Civ Fanatics is always a ball.)
 
@OP cant help you with the immersion factor. A lot of things in this game break that immersion. For me its the childish graphics of the game and actually having to make an effort to find hills or strategic resources on the 'teletubish' map.

BUT my main gripe with Civ 6 is the brain dead AI and in this patch there are a lot of production improvements which might help out the AI especially in later eras to compete with human players.

Additionally there might also be some "hidden" improvements/surprises in the patch which might be delightful.

All in all I would say that the patch elicits at the very least a single play-through to determine whether the game is playable (for you and your truly).
 
I've stopped playing Civilization before Gathering Storm, but after Civ #1 way back in the 90's. When I was advised that one of my traders overheard that Rome was trading with China...when I was playing as Rome...I knew this version of the game was in trouble.

As for the June patch: New yields, new ribbons, Canadian tundra farms now get three wheat and a free beaver pelt...blah blah blah... It all feels so inconsequential. Nothing in Civ VI seems to matter. And to further break the link of cause and effect that makes games enjoyable, they've added all this random leader nonsense; "Cleopatra doesn't like civilizations that install wall-to-wall mirrors in their bathrooms..." It's like someone decided that busywork would be a good idea for a game. Why is Papers Please so flipping engrossing and commanding an entire civilization from the stone age on feels like doing my taxes?

I don't see how any of the changes (known so far) are going to make this game fun. It's not a challenge, it makes no sense, (a city revolts and spawns 3 modern armor divisions? I guess they got them on ebay?), it's shallow where 6 versions in it should be deep and the AI has only mastered the A part.

Please, someone convince me that this is changing with this patch... That some aspect of what a few players think is fundamentally flawed with the game is being fixed... I want to get back into it so badly.
It's absolutely not "flawed", but fundamentally it's not a game for you (or me), and no amount of patches (or expansions) will change that. If you (or I) want to enjoy a Civilization game with modern graphics, mods are the only way...

...if/when we're finally allowed to mod the gameplay :undecide:

It sounds like you want a very different game from a 4X historical board game, especially if your go-to comparison is a timer-based pattern-matching story-driven single player game.
My go to comparison is Civ I, II, III, IV.

V and VI completely lacks the feeling of "building an Empire to stand the test of time" IMO.
 
A game is what you make of it and while it is not hard to win, some of the challenge people have adapted to how fast you can win. Playing with this attitude you realise the game has a lot of balanced nuances and there is much more choice in VI and making the right choice will shave a turn or two off victory. I am guessing you are more one of these types of people because you mention challenge.

I agree, a game is what you make of it. Challenges can be made by looking for the fastest victory route, or choosing not to take the obvious path to victory, or otherwise making the game more difficult for yourself through your own choices or through modding.

I've been playing with the time 3x mod and I also halved unit and building costs. The result is the AI constantly builds massive armies, and in my last game Pedro declared war on me three times, I had to actively defend myself each time. That's a challenge of a type for sure, but it did get a bit exhausting.

I wasn't really a fan of Civ 5 on release, I couldn't believe they'd make it so that settling would be punishing. That, combined with 1 UPT and the dark art style (which I later came to appreciate even though I prefer 6's), drove me away for a few years. I eventually started playing it multiplayer, then went back for single player games for a bit.

I enjoy Civ 6, but I can see why some don't like it. I'd suggest either trying mods, or just hanging out until the next release.

It's absolutely not "flawed", but fundamentally it's not a game for you (or me), and no amount of patches (or expansions) will change that. If you (or I) want to enjoy a Civilization game with modern graphics, mods are the only way...

V and VI completely lacks the feeling of "building an Empire to stand the test of time" IMO.

I'm interested in what you consider to be a Civ game, I think that could be a fun discussion.
 
I'm interested in what you consider to be a Civ game, I think that could be a fun discussion.
Just to be clear, I did not meant that V and VI are not civ games, but that they are not civ games I'd like to play.

As for what is a civ game I'd like to play, thanks to CFC I've got a whole subforum dedicated to that (the main thread's link with a global description is in my sig)
 
Dear op,
I have a feeling there's no way to convince you that CiVI is your game. Maybe it's not. Simple.
I would give it a shot when there's a sale if I were you. But that's just me ..

Being here (and in the game) from Civ I to me CiVI is the best iteration to date. Civ V was the all time low of the series for me. Vox made it significantly better but I never understood what's so cool about a 5 city "tall" empire. That's more like a dwarf empire to me...

VI: I love the alive graphics (teletubbish? *pfff* your lack of fantasy pities me... :p) and the possibilities of shaping your empire to your liking. That is if you don't only want to win the easiest, fastest, most secure way. Because if you want to it indeed is easy fast and unevitably safe that you will, most of the time even on deity! But let's be honest, it was like that in all iterations... :smug:
Some more tension or not if you will win wouldn't hurt though and a good patch would ideally force everyone to go down a level before being able to win again. :rolleyes:
Cultural achievements are very well implemented science progress is good and getting better. I love the map being important.
Era system is ready to shine if some bold changes might get made same for diplomacy. Domination is on the easier side of things to handle.What's not working is the pacing of the game and connected to that that it sometimes takes ages to build anything...
With the exception of era system (presumably) this patch is working on exactly the points I feel are in the most needed places. It won't be perfect and there will be lots of space for further improvement (perfect is a non existing state in reality). But there's reason to be excited! :king:
 
VI: I love the alive graphics (teletubbish? *pfff* your lack of fantasy pities me... :p)

and your lack of maturity "pities" me:nono:

Moderator Action: Please stick to the topic and not judge other posters. It is trolling. leif
 
Last edited by a moderator:
and your lack of maturity "pities" me:nono:
Grown Ups!! :rolleyes:

Moderator Action: Answering trolls only takes the thread off topic and serves no useful purpose. Report troll posts, never answer them. leif
 
@OP cant help you with the immersion factor. A lot of things in this game break that immersion. For me its the childish graphics of the game and actually having to make an effort to find hills or strategic resources on the 'teletubish' map.

BUT my main gripe with Civ 6 is the brain dead AI and in this patch there are a lot of production improvements which might help out the AI especially in later eras to compete with human players.

Additionally there might also be some "hidden" improvements/surprises in the patch which might be delightful.

All in all I would say that the patch elicits at the very least a single play-through to determine whether the game is playable (for you and your truly).

Is that with or without the Civ 5 environmental skin? It makes the textures much more detailed and hills easier to spot.
 
It sounds like you want a very different game from a 4X historical board game, especially if your go-to comparison is a timer-based pattern-matching story-driven single player game.

@OP cant help you with the immersion factor. A lot of things in this game break that immersion. For me its the childish graphics of the game and actually having to make an effort to find hills or strategic resources on the 'teletubish' map.

BUT my main gripe with Civ 6 is the brain dead AI and in this patch there are a lot of production improvements which might help out the AI especially in later eras to compete with human players.

Additionally there might also be some "hidden" improvements/surprises in the patch which might be delightful.

All in all I would say that the patch elicits at the very least a single play-through to determine whether the game is playable (for you and your truly).


I think this is my essential point, I don't feel immersed in the game. I like to play a huge map with as many other civilizations as that version allows on the slowest setting. I rarely "finish" a game, but rather think of it more like a world simulator. The earlier versions did this; I used to walk home from school thinking about what I was going to do about the "Egypt Problem." Now, not as much. It maybe a different developer that I'd need to make the game more into my version (not to disparage anyone who 's really into VI now.) The only reason I mentioned Papers Please is it does a good job of sucking you in, genre aside.

Enthusiasm is contagious though. And I enjoy having my assumptions challenged. Victoria's advice about giving it at least a shot seems solid, you never know. Almost all the other rambles/gripes I agree with as well.

Is there any clue as to when modders will be given free-reign? It seems to me to be an odd decision to hold off on releasing the game's genome... One would think it would increase sales and interest into the game; I'd plop down my $40 for Gathering Storm today if I knew the kids could get at the source code.
 
Play something else. LEAVE US ALONE!!!!!!!!
I may do that one day and stop updating, but I still feel a bit of responsibility for every players enjoying civ6 with my mods.
 
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