Why Angle-land?

[Shibbyman]

I've been wondering recently why, considering the numerical importance of the Saxons settlers in early England compared to that of the Angles along with the historical importance of Wessex (West Saxons) in unifying England and the importance that English monarchs have generally placed on tracing their lineage back to Alfred (a Wessexian), is the country called England (land of the Angles)? The only thing I could think of was a possible Norman connection, but, apparently, the country was referred to as England from union of Wessex and Mercia onwards which rules that out.

Does anyone have any information about historic names?

 

[Theige]

There already was a Saxony?

 

[Moggy]

Saxland would either sound dirty or musical (depending on how your mind works).

 

[Plotinus]

Because that's what Bede called it. Before Bede the Saxons did not particularly consider themselves all members of a single cultural group. When they did, they called themselves "Saxons". Bede wrote his historical works partly in order to promote the idea of the "English" as a single cultural and national unity. He preferred the name "Angles" to "Saxons", and so "England" stuck.

I'm not sure about the claim that British monarchs trace their lineage back to Alfred the Great. The Anglo-Saxon monarchy was effectively abolished and replaced by a new dynasty after the Conquest.

 

[Verbose]

I guess it would in fact be "Saxland", in Welsh, the Welsh word for English being "Sais", i.e. Saxon.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I'm not sure about the claim that British monarchs trace their lineage back to Alfred the Great. The Anglo-Saxon monarchy was effectively abolished and replaced by a new dynasty after the Conquest.

I think they intermarried with the surviving bloodline of the monarchy... This was probably likely to happen anyways, because I think European royalty interrmarriage hooplah already started early on, anyhow.

 

[Shibbyman]

Because that's what Bede called it. Before Bede the Saxons did not particularly consider themselves all members of a single cultural group. When they did, they called themselves "Saxons". Bede wrote his historical works partly in order to promote the idea of the "English" as a single cultural and national unity. He preferred the name "Angles" to "Saxons", and so "England" stuck.

I'm not sure about the claim that British monarchs trace their lineage back to Alfred the Great. The Anglo-Saxon monarchy was effectively abolished and replaced by a new dynasty after the Conquest.

I understand that much of it, but I just wanted to know what the importance of the Angles was. I've done some research since I made this post and it turns out that Bede was born in a region that he claimed was settled by the Angles. Which would explain the importance he gives to them. Also, the fact that "Angle" and it's variations had virtually died out on the continent and thus could be used to exclusively refer to the English whereas Saxon was still widely used to refer to a region of modern day Germany at the time of Bede's writing could contribute.

I wasn't saying that the current dynasty can directly trace its lineage back to Alfred the Great, just that many monarchs throughout English history have tried to claim that they were decended from the early Wessexian monarchs in order to legitimise their rule. Also, there was a restoration of a branch of the Anglo-Saxon dynasty after the Norman Conquest.

I guess it would in fact be "Saxland", in Welsh, the Welsh word for English being "Sais", i.e. Saxon.

The use of terms derived from Saxon is what started me thinking about the name. There is also Pow Sows (Saxon Land) in Cornish and the Gaelic slur (if I'm not mistaken) Sassanach.

 

[Mirc]

Also, the fact that "Angle" and it's variations had virtually died out on the continent and thus could be used to exclusively refer to the English whereas Saxon was still widely used to refer to a region of modern day Germany at the time of Bede's writing could contribute.

That's also an idea. Don't forget that the Saxons were much more widespread than just in Saxony and in today's England. There were significant Saxon populations in Austria, all the way to Italy, and many in Transylvania (where they still exist to this day, although some 85% of them fled during the Communism).

 

[Dachs]

Don't forget that the Saxons were much more widespread than just in Saxony and in today's England. There were significant Saxon populations in Austria, all the way to Italy, and many in Transylvania (where they still exist to this day, although some 85% of them fled during the Communism).

IIRC those weren't actually Saxons (though that's what they were called), but Franconians like myself.

 

[Mirc]

IIRC those weren't actually Saxons (though that's what they were called), but Franconians like myself.

Maybe, true, I remember reading about that now that you told me.

(hmm my last 6 posts were about Transylvania, I must've been bitten )

 

[really]

I guess it would in fact be "Saxland", in Welsh, the Welsh word for English being "Sais", i.e. Saxon.

Same in Ireland and Scotland: in Gaelic languages it's Sasana rather than Angleland.

Maybe the Saxons were in the north and west and the angles were in the south and east. The angles had a bit of better exposure to the world and became the default name, whereas the Saxons were exposed only to the Celts and the Angles?

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

No, the Saxons were in the south and the Angles in the north. There were also Frisians and Jutes. Most of England, geographically, was in the Angle kingdoms of Northumbria, Mercia and East Anglia.

 

[Tee Kay]

Because Saxonland sounds ridiculous.

Perhaps the Saxon came to be speaking the "English" language of the Angles, and became assimilated by Angle culture? Just throwing ideas around.

 

[Dachs]

Most of England, geographically, was in the Angle kingdoms of Northumbria, Mercia and East Anglia.

And since Northumbria and Mercia were two of the most powerful of the states in what would eventually become England...

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

No. Wessex was the most powerful, and it was the kingdom which united the other Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in the end.

Because this might have been missed...

Because that's what Bede called it. Before Bede the Saxons did not particularly consider themselves all members of a single cultural group. When they did, they called themselves "Saxons". Bede wrote his historical works partly in order to promote the idea of the "English" as a single cultural and national unity. He preferred the name "Angles" to "Saxons", and so "England" stuck.

I'm not sure about the claim that British monarchs trace their lineage back to Alfred the Great. The Anglo-Saxon monarchy was effectively abolished and replaced by a new dynasty after the Conquest.

 

[Dachs]

No. Wessex was the most powerful, and it was the kingdom which united the other Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in the end.

I don't think Wessex was the most powerful earlier on, but it certainly was by the ninth century.

 

[Plotinus]

Mercia and Northumbria were the most powerful before the Viking invasions, which largely destroyed them as independent powers. Wessex became dominant in the end because they avoided being conquered by the Vikings, and under Alfred the Great defeated them.

 

[Sharwood]

Don't forget, the term 'Anglo-Saxon' was originally meant to simply mean 'Saxons in Britain.' It didn't come to mean 'English' until much later.