Why are privateers not private?

[Victoria]

I am sailing along in my sea dog, using sea mists as visibility cover. I have found one of those fat golden galleons us privateers dream of. I shout the attack when the cabin boy grabs my hand and says "but sir, this will count as a declaration of war against England".
Yes Lizzy has ordered me to be a pirate secretly working for the queen, but no-one else knows that.
In fact how did the damn cabin boy know.

It would he nice if there was a privateer military policy, perhaps only usable in the renaissance?

 

[Agent327]

Well, it would make sense if you were a Pirate of the Caribbean. But wait, those got eradicated by official civilizations. But maybe someone can make a Pirates of the Caribbean mod. Yaaarrrr!

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

Didn't the privateers in Civ 4 allow you to attack another civilization without declaring war?

 

[MisterBoomBoom]

Total agree. That is exactly what a privateer was Victoria. A way for countries to avoid formal war through intermediaries. I honestly would love for the Civ team to hire a historian or two.

 

[diamond geezer]

The Barbarians are the Pirates; Privateers are a different kettle of fish. A bit like "Military Advisors" - they'd be fun too.

 

[Amrunril]

Historically though, requiring a declaration of war was exactly what distinguished a privateer from a pirate. Nations certainly did at times covertly encourage piracy against one another, but a privateer was something different, a private ship given explicit legal sanction (a letter of marque) to raid enemy ships in time of war.

 

[Tdot1]

Total agree. That is exactly what a privateer was Victoria. A way for countries to avoid formal war through intermediaries. I honestly would love for the Civ team to hire a historian or two.

I am so 100% behind this idea. And yeah Vicky, there are so many things like this which could just be done so much better. Similar with Pillaging or something, some way to harass and annoy your enemies without having a hectic all out war.

 

[hongyu20]

I am so 100% behind this idea. And yeah Vicky, there are so many things like this which could just be done so much better. Similar with Pillaging or something, some way to harass and annoy your enemies without having a hectic all out war.

But then that probably encourages warfare even more than it does now ...

 

[Agent327]

Total agree. That is exactly what a privateer was Victoria. A way for countries to avoid formal war through intermediaries. I honestly would love for the Civ team to hire a historian or two.

That wouldn't change anything. 'Official' privateers had a letter from their monarch allowing them to raid and capture booty from enemy vessels. This was part of warfare, not of any undeclared war. Those are pirates you are thinking of.

 

[Tdot1]

But then that probably encourages warfare even more than it does now ...

The problem is people hating each other too easily - which I think is only partly true - not how easy it is to go to war, there are plenty of deterrents for going to war.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

'Official' privateers had a letter from their monarch allowing them to raid and capture booty from enemy vessels. This was part of warfare, not of any undeclared war. Those are pirates you are thinking of.

Ah, but one country's Daring Privateer was another country's Bloodsucking Pirate: as in Bloody Pirate/Privater Francis Drake, whose title depended on whether you were speaking English or Spanish...

 

[Victoria]

That is exactly what a privateer was Victoria

ikr

This was part of warfare, not of any undeclared war. Those are pirates you are thinking of.

The below taken from - http://bbprivateer.ca/?q=book/export/html/11
"Privateers were ships that were privately owned and commisioned by a government to make reprisals, gain reparation to the crown for specific offenses in time of peace, or to prey upon the enemy in time time of war"

And if you quote the wiki back at me... if you read down it contradicts itself with facts like
"By using privateers, if the Spanish were to take offense at the plundering of their ships, Queen Elizabeth could always deny she had anything to do with the actions of such independents."

Seriously @Agent327 you think being attacked by a ship not flying a flag meant you knew what country they came from and knew it was a royally blessed ship rather that a bunch of thugs? Do you really think rulers of country will only attack other countries very rich galleons in times of war? It is nice you think of human nature so kindly.

 

[Manifold]

That wouldn't change anything. 'Official' privateers had a letter from their monarch allowing them to raid and capture booty from enemy vessels. This was part of warfare, not of any undeclared war. Those are pirates you are thinking of.

mmh, I guess it is a little bit more complicated. I mean, the most famous pirate SIR Francis Drake is a good example for a pirate with majestic sponsors. Of course finally his action leads into a war between England and Spain, but who declared it? and who get the warmonger penalty for this?
-> It does not matter in this time! So if the pirates where successful there was always anyone who take their loot and equip their ship. Especially England and their American colonies did good business this way.

I like the idea of ships with black flags and without a sign of the civ.
But it must be combined with an easy way to protect the trade routes especially for the AI !!!!!!! (The protection of trade routes could be a new command for a ships in a harbor.)
The pirate must be purchased with gold.
The number of pirate ships per Civ should be limited.
If a pirate ship is defeated the Civ should lose some reputation and the Civ of the successful pirate hunter should get a Cassus belli against the Civ of the pirate.

An alternative building for the harbor, like the harbor-tavern would be cool as well. this building could reduce the purchase price or a Civ only can support as much pirates as it has harbor-taverns.

A privateer military policy card would be cool for some extra blood thirst, but should not be necessary to buy pirates.

 

[Agent327]

I actually consider the current 'solution' (privateers being invisible until you're right next to one) quite elegant. It simulates the fact that a privateer could without warning attack an 'enemy' vessel while carrying a 'neutral' flag (or hoist a 'black flag' when spotting a booty vessel, in game terms).

The below taken from - http://bbprivateer.ca/?q=book/export/html/11
"Privateers were ships that were privately owned and commisioned by a government to make reprisals, gain reparation to the crown for specific offenses in time of peace, or to prey upon the enemy in time time of war"

And if you quote the wiki back at me... if you read down it contradicts itself with facts like
"By using privateers, if the Spanish were to take offense at the plundering of their ships, Queen Elizabeth could always deny she had anything to do with the actions of such independents."

Seriously @Agent327 you think being attacked by a ship not flying a flag meant you knew what country they came from and knew it was a royally blessed ship rather that a bunch of thugs? Do you really think rulers of country will only attack other countries very rich galleons in times of war? It is nice you think of human nature so kindly.

I didn't mention what I think, as that's irrelevant. The privateers were employed by a monarch, and had a letter to prove so. That's what sets them apart from buccaneers. (And I don't need to (or did) quote Wikipedia, which, as you point out, contradicts itself anyway.) If a privateer did not have such a royal letter, it would simply be a pirate. That's the basic difference.

Perhaps what you are thinking of is the infamous Act of Navigation (post-Elizabethan, to be true)? But one has to keep in mind that trade and piracy were often interconnected; this goes at least back to the Viking era.

 

[Victoria]

I actually consider the current 'solution' (privateers being invisible until you're right next to one) quite elegant. It simulates the fact that a privateer could without warning attack an 'enemy' vessel while carrying a 'neutral' flag (or hoist a 'black flag' when spotting a booty vessel, in game terms).

well said

You did say

not of any undeclared war.

but lets leave it

 

[Victoria]

But it must be combined with an easy way to protect the trade routes especially for the AI !!!!!!!

Lisbon City State is a bit OP in this way

 

[Agent327]

Well, we may have developed legal nuances that were irrelevant in the 17th century - or not. For instance, the English and Dutch EIC were virtually independent from the political entities that provided their charter. This was in part due to the literal distance from their home countries they operated from (communications could take months), but also because our modern idea of statehood was totally undeveloped in those days. So in practice the difference between a privateer (with royal letter) and a pirate may have been blurred or even completely indistinguishable. (And yes, I realize I've been putting some nuance on what I said earlier.) In practice the difference may very well have been between what 'we' did and what the other guys did. 'We' were honest privateers and 'they' were despicable pirates. But in theory (i.e. legally) the difference between the two was still there.

 

[Victoria]

Ah yes, greed is a powerful thing to be burdened with the harness of statehood. I guess itall depends on what we consider virtually independent. You could also say heavily intertwined.
Although I am english born I do recognise that our abillity on the waves was down to good fortune. Especially with the dutch.

 

[Agent327]

Well, I guess it's nice to have a small like-minded republic next door that can learn you all the tricks of the trade, I guess...

 

[MisterBoomBoom]

well said

You did say

but lets leave it

Agreed. I no longer enter into such defences of historical matters especially those that are basic to anyone holding a doctorate.