Why are Swordsman so weak to Pikemen?

[Rooftrellen]

Another option would be to add more units to counter each other. Make axe using units that can counter mounted units and pikemen. They would be cheap and weak, but effective as cannon fodder and countering those specific units. Allow current (melee) mounted units to get a bonus against flanked units, carving out their niche, but keeping the focus on ground units for most civs.

Add in a ranged mounted line that is a bit slower than the mounted melee units.

Then give current ranged units to crossbowmen a bonus when firing without moving, and give pikemen a bonus defense to ranged attacks, helping them really counter these guys.

The end result:

Swordsmen are your basic backbone unit. Hammer for hammer these are the best bet against anything else, but they don't specialize against anything. They would be likely to be used on defense to provide ZoC for archers against a potentially varied incoming army.

Axemen are cheap light infantry that can counter melee mounted and spear/pikemen on a per hammer basis, much like Swordsmen against Pikemen currently. They would be built in small numbers due to the upgrade cost when they get to muskets and their specialized nature, but would provide a good amount of health to an army in a pinch.

Melee mounted units are to swoop in and attack from the edges, leaving the enemy dead or hurt and unable to get away. Their power should make it ok that they can be countered by 2 other types of units.

Infantry ranged units help hold the line, standing behind allies, safe by ZoC, and raining death on attacking armies.

Ranged mounted units would become the mobile ranged attack units, stronger than their infantry counter parts after moving as they push forward.

Pikemen become a nice counter to ranged units, and can still fight well against mounted units. They would be likely to be used on offense due to their ability to stand up to ranged attacks.

Early war (and tech for that matter) seem really over simplified and mostly there just to bring you to the industrial revolution. It would be nice if they could beef it up a bit.

 

[Dogmouth]

+100 points for Boris. Great read, and I agree with everything.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Civ doesn't need a whole lot of new units, but it could have some better promotion paths using some selected new units...more in the Renaissance/Industrial period than in earlier Eras. This isn't entirely pertinent to the original post/thread, but here is how I'd like to see the (land) unit sequence go:

Ancient Era:
.....Scout (recon unit)
.....Warrior (melee unit)
.....Archer (ranged unit)
.....Chariot Archer (mounted ranged unit)
.....Noble Warrior (mounted melee unit)
...........ONLY buildable if you have Bronze (copper) Resource and the Social Policies of Aristocracy, Honor and Warrior Code - think Gallic chieftains with swords and throwing spears in chariots or Achilles running down the peasant warriors

Classical Era
.....Swordsman (melee unit) - upgrade from Warrior
.....Spearman (anti-mounted melee unit)
......Composite Bowman (ranged unit) - Upgrade from Archer
......Horseman (mounted melee unit) - Upgrade from Noble Warrior
......Catapult (siege unit)
...........Pre-Gunpowder Siege Units would have MAJOR negative modifiers against units - ever tried to aim a catapult or trebuchet at a moving target?

Medieval Era
.....Man at Arms (melee unit) - Upgrade from Swordsman
............This is just a personal preference, it has the characteristics of the current 'Longswordsman' but reflects the real improvement, which was in heavy armor and anti-armor weapons like maces, battleaxes, etc as well as the 'long' swords.
.....Pikeman (anti-mounted melee unit) - Upgrade from Spearman
...........Not available until the late part of the Era, maybe last tech before Renaissance Era starts in that thread
......Crossbowman (ranged unit) - Upgrade from Composite Bowman
............Comes about halfway through the Era, ideally
......Knight (mounted unit) - Upgrade from Horseman
............Comes early in the Era, maybe first or second tech in the appropriate thread.
......Trebuchet (siege unit) - Upgrade from Catapult

Renaissance Era
.....Dragoon (recon unit) - Upgrade from Scout
........... this is needed: a scout upgrade, representing the early gunpowder light cavalry that dismounted to fight: factors should be much better than Barbarian warriors, spearmen, or pikemen, no spear/pike negatives since they don't try to close with the enemy, just dismount and shoot at them. Cannot stand up to regular cavalry of the Era (they were given the worst horses available!)
.....Musketman (melee unit) - Upgrade from Man at Arms
.....Fusilier (melee unit) - Upgrade from Musketman OR Pikeman
..........Later than the Cannon or Galloper Gun, has better factors than the Musketman and has nearly the Pikemans' antimounted advantage. From this point, all your Melee Infantry converge their Upgrade paths.
.....Galloper Gun (ranged unit) - Upgrade from Crossbowman
...........this should be the upgrade for early Gunpowder 'ranged' units: the very light guns of the 16th - 17th century, like the Swedish 'leather gun' and the 3 - 4 lbers used by English and Dutch as 'battalion' guns: they have 1 range like the current Gatlings, very poor defense, lousy as siege weapons, but very dangerous against enemy infantry (they regularly fired cannister like giant shotguns, then being horsedrawn could zip away from a countercharge), so can retreat like the current slingers.
.....Cuirassier (mounted unit) - Upgrade from Knight
........... the armored cavalry that replaced Knights in the late Renaissance. Can ride down Musketmen, but no better than even against Fusiliers
.....Bombard (siege unit)
...........This is actually the earliest Gunpowder unit, the massive city wall killers of the 15th century. Great Siege factors, absolutely useless against mobile troops, so should have major negative factors against cavalry/scouts.
.....Cannon (siege/ranged unit) - Upgrade from Bombard
.......... Late Renaissance unit, the classic smooth bore 6 to 12 lber field gun of the 17th to mid-19th century. For the first time, a siege unit that does not have negatives against field units.

Industrial Era
..... Armored Car (recon unit) - Upgrade from Dragoon
...........first use of 'motorization' in war, contemporary or slightly earlier than the Landship. Very fast, extra sight like scouts, absolutely deadly against pre-gunpowder troops who have nothing that can hurt it unless it sits still long enough for a trebuchet to target it - like, sits down and has a 7 course meal...
.....Rifleman (melee unit) - Upgrade from Fusilier
.....Gatling Gun (ranged unit) - Upgrade from Galloper Gun
.....Cavalry (mounted melee unit) - Upgrade from Cuirassier
.....Artillery (siege/ranged unit) - Upgrade from Cannon
.....Great War Infantry (melee unit) - Upgrade from Rifleman
.....Machinegun (ranged unit) - Upgrade from Gatling Gun
.....Landship (armor unit) - Upgrade from Cavalry

After that, it's pretty much the same as current, except that the antitank/antiaircraft guns do not upgrade from any infantry or cavalry/mounted unit, they upgrade from Machineguns, whose ultra-short ranged 'ranged' mission should get taken over by the long range Artillery.

Until, of course, we get to the "Future" Era where the Giant Death Robot should be consigned to Fantasy Oblivion where it belongs and replaced with:
.....Mobile Infantry (melee unit) - Upgrade from Mechanized Infantry
........... Current trends are towards infantry with exo-skeletons, stealth armor, personal drones, and an array of sensors and weapons almost as good as current heavy tanks. This would be slightly slower than Mech Infantry but with Scout-like terrain non-penalties, as heavily armed as Modern Armor, more expensive than either, but with Sight out to 3 tiles.
.....Orbital Weapons (ranged unit) - NO Upgrade
...........Next advance on orbital surveillance is to drop Big Stuff from orbit with maneuverable satillite weapons - artillery with worldwide range, up to and including nuclear. For balance, anti-missile Lasers or Missiles will also have to be added as Future or Near Future Tech, possibly as a City Improvement/Building.

Whew! Another long post, hope it didn't go too far off-topic.

 

[kgoodrid]

Great points Boris.

I think that the units should follow their historical use a bit more. I would like to see the following:
- Spearmen as the dirt cheap Ancient unit available to everyone after Warriors with a bit of a bonus against Mounted.
- The Phalanx as a Classical unit available to everyone with the behavior you have described (very effective on open terrain, major penalty in rough terrain)
- UUs like the Hoplite would replace the Phalanx.
- Pikemen would be pushed much further back into the Renaissance, and would remain viable until (as you have described) a Gunpowder bayonet infantry unit becomes available.

 

[MadDjinn]

On another note... based on what someone said here about pikemen in the Civil War... why didn't anyone build a shield that could stop a musket ball? You'd think that it wouldn't take much to stop a primitive musket ball... then you have a sword or pike and rip people apart while they are reloading. Several men could carry some kind of thick iron shield and just plow into the musket line... emerge from behind and BOOM. Even have oxen or mules pushing the iron plow.

I'm sure someone tried but it wasn't viable. Keeping in mind that muskets weren't exactly great at 'killing', but definitely maimed and allowed for diseases (most common death due to a poor health care system). Plus any idiot could use one.

Ofc, there's the other aspect to warfare that changed in the Renaissance - both sides 'lining up' and then shooting at each other. It was a more 'honourable' way to wage war. Dumb, but 'honourable'. It's also why the civil wars were being won against the empires of the day. One side thought standing and shooting was the best way, the other sides thought - "Hey, why don't we not get shot in the first place?"

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think that the units should follow their historical use a bit more. I would like to see the following:
- Spearmen as the dirt cheap Ancient unit available to everyone after Warriors with a bit of a bonus against Mounted.
- The Phalanx as a Classical unit available to everyone with the behavior you have described (very effective on open terrain, major penalty in rough terrain)
- UUs like the Hoplite would replace the Phalanx.
- Pikemen would be pushed much further back into the Renaissance, and would remain viable until (as you have described) a Gunpowder bayonet infantry unit becomes available.

Trouble is, the Phalanx, heavily-armored spearmen with large shields which protect both the holder and the man on his left, were not universal. In fact, they required more of a Social Policy shift than a technological one. Everybody could get iron/bronze enough to make spearpoints, helmets and shields. What made the Phalanx unique to Greece (and pre-Legion Rome) was the willingness of the men in it to support each other and get right up in the enemy's face and kill him at close range. When others (Persians, Carthaginians) tried to reproduce the Phalanx, they got armored spearmen that just weren't as good at it.

Mind you, in game terms that feeds into the idea that Social Policy can influence the Units you get. For instance, if you have Meritocracy (Tradition) and Discipline (Honor) Social Policies, you could 'unlock' a Superior Spearman: the Hoplite. This unit could also show up as a City State unit that could be gifted, because Hoplite-armed infantry were mercenaries all over the Mediterranean world...

Alexander's UU, by the way, should be the Pezhetairoi or Macedonian Phalanx, which was actually a Pike-armed light infantry developed by Alexander's father Phillip.

Except for Alex, everyone else would have to wait until the very end of the Medieval period, after they'd gotten Knights and Crossbowman, before they could build Pikemen. However, at about the same time not only do the Germans get their cheap Landsknecht pikes, but there should be a militaristic City State named Berne (Swiss) that can gift you Swiss Pikes - pikemen that have no rough terrain movement penalty (The Swiss pikes were notoriously fast-moving, especially in the attack).

That means in sum that you'd have in the 'Anti- Mounted Melee' line of units:

Spearman (Bronze Working)
.....Hoplite (Bronze Working, Social Policies) +20% melee factor
Phalanx (Iron Working) Greek UU - pike factors
Pikemen (Late Medieval)
.....Landsknecht (Late Medieval) German UU - cheaper pikemen
.....Swiss Pikes (Late Medieval) - City State unit - fast pikemen

All the Spearmen would Upgrade to Pikemen, including the Phalanx
This makes it possible for all the Pikemen-type units to Upgrade to Fusiliers,
The Very End of the Renaissance Era Melee-Anti-Mounted unit.

And if anyone wants to keep a pikeman around to try to fight Riflemen with it in the 1860s, they are welcome to try it...

 

[Rooftrellen]

Trouble is, the Phalanx, heavily-armored spearmen with large shields which protect both the holder and the man on his left, were not universal. In fact, they required more of a Social Policy shift than a technological one. Everybody could get iron/bronze enough to make spearpoints, helmets and shields.

While you are quite right in one respect, the Phalanx was really a result of social conditioning (the Greeks said if you ran from battle you were killing a fellow citizen), it was a formation, a unit, not a soldier.

Hoplites generally moved in phalanges (which would be the more appropriate unit for Greece since it is a unit and not a soldier) , and having both would seem odd. Though the phalanx is a formation that was used by others, it's just too linked to Greece, where it saw almost all of it's use.

 

[Perfxion]

Wouldn't the simple answer be to give a bonus to swoardsmen/long Swordsmen against melee units instead of moving pikes to after Knights. This gives knights free reign to attack. Pikemen and Axemen are the back bone of a lot of armies back then because they were relatively cheap to mass on the field. Swords and knights were expensive, thus should be rarer units. But they should just get a bump in power because they could fight most items, but didn't have the numbers of Axemen(which used their farm axe in war), or Pikemen(little bit of metal on a long stick).

 

[kgoodrid]

When others (Persians, Carthaginians) tried to reproduce the Phalanx, they got armored spearmen that just weren't as good at it

That is actually part of my point. Lots of armies used a Phalanx (Heck, look at Rome's early army...it was a Phalanx right up until the Samnite hill fights forced them to adopt a more flexible formation). These were organized formations of spear or pike wielding soldiers, very different from just a mob of guys with spears. They were typically much closer to the traditional Greek Phalanx than they were to the average spear wielding soldier elsewhere in the Ancient world. They simply weren't as effective as the Macedonian Phalanx, so that is why the Greeks should simply have a much better Phalanx.

Wouldn't the simple answer be to give a bonus to swoardsmen/long Swordsmen against melee units instead of moving pikes to after Knights. This gives knights free reign to attack. Pikemen and Axemen are the back bone of a lot of armies back then because they were relatively cheap to mass on the field. Swords and knights were expensive, thus should be rarer units. But they should just get a bump in power because they could fight most items, but didn't have the numbers of Axemen(which used their farm axe in war), or Pikemen(little bit of metal on a long stick).

That would be simple, but I think the ideas presented to make terrain impact tactics are more interesting, effective, and realistic. As others have pointed out, a Phalanx-style formation could be deadly against any enemy, mounted, infantry, or whatever, under the right conditions. So some basic easly swordsmen wouldn't always have an advantage against a Phalanx on open ground. In rough terrain or flanking, yes, but not up front. Pikes were the dominant melee unit well into the ageLater units using big two-handed swords would be more effective as seen in history.

As far as the the timing, the late Pikemen units were a response to the dominance of cavalry, so it makes sense for Knights to come first and be dominant before later Pikemen units come around to counter them and then hold onto their dominance until the Musketeers could defend themselves with bayonets.

 

[Furycrab]

I'm sure someone tried but it wasn't viable. Keeping in mind that muskets weren't exactly great at 'killing', but definitely maimed and allowed for diseases (most common death due to a poor health care system). Plus any idiot could use one.

Ofc, there's the other aspect to warfare that changed in the Renaissance - both sides 'lining up' and then shooting at each other. It was a more 'honourable' way to wage war. Dumb, but 'honourable'. It's also why the civil wars were being won against the empires of the day. One side thought standing and shooting was the best way, the other sides thought - "Hey, why don't we not get shot in the first place?"

There were some practical reasons for standing like that, it's just some movies absolutely suck at getting the proper visual of what it was. It was more about moving in roughly a vertical line, and then once in range, you'd quickly move into a horizontal line in order for all your men to be quickly able to get that one shot. It also made you significantly harder to get a money shot with artillery unless your foe had sufficient time to do range tests. It wasn't really about being "honorable", but there are like umpteenth Civil war movies that make it look like both armies stared at each other for 5 minutes once in musket range... I kinda like the Last Samurai as some good shots of how musket regiments would move and fight.


As for shields. Wood or Iron would have to be way too heavy to be practical. If your shield splinters and explodes into you, or if you are too slow to move into a proper firing position, you were as good as dead anyways.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Hoplites generally moved in phalanges (which would be the more appropriate unit for Greece since it is a unit and not a soldier) , and having both would seem odd. Though the phalanx is a formation that was used by others, it's just too linked to Greece, where it saw almost all of it's use.

Quite agree, but we run into the 'familiarity' versus 'accuracy' problem in gaming. To be absolutely correct, the Greek UU would be a Phalanx composed of Hoplites (from Hoplon, their large round shield). BUT the 'Greek' leader is Alexander III (the Great) of Macedon, whose characteristic infantry were the Pezhetairoi, or "Foot Companions" who were pikemen with smaller round (or oval) shields and, originally, very little armor but very good drill and speed.

Unfortunately, there are durned few people who would know what you were talking about when you mention Pezhetairoi (and it might be mistaken for a candy dispenser), so I think "Phalanx" which covers both the original spear-armed and the later, Macedonian Pike-armed 'Greek' units, is a better choice. Hoplite, referring to a spearman with a large, wood and metal round shield and therefore somewhat better equipped than the average spear-armed tribal levy of, say, the middle east or German tribes, is better suited to differentiate an 'Improved Spearman' if we need it.

 

[Lord Khorak]

The pikes of the late middle ages/renaissance were a combination of 'answer to heavily-armed horsemen (knights)' and 'relatively cheap infantry that city states facing knights can afford'.

Quite the opposite in fact; pikemen are what you got when there were strong, rich, and well organised states, or as was also occurring in Europe at the time, a situation in which there's a ****load of money and war going around which makes 'professional soldier' a really good job prospect all on its own.

Pikemen were not in any way at all cheap. A proper pike block required professionally drilled soldiers, which required the surplus population to allow for it, and enough money for it to happen at all. In Europe the Swiss and Landsknect mercenaries were often the primary forces used, and the rising wealth of Renaissance Europe made it possible for such professional mercenary bands to exist (along with the general carnage also occurring). City states such as those in Italy had the money, but not the men or will (or both) to maintain such standing forces. The various states of the Holy Roman Empire would also avail themselves of mercenaries to bolster their numbers during the regular brawling there.

The largest, more centralised nations could maintain their own instead. The Spanish developed them into the Tercio and mashed damn near everything stupid enough to fight them. France had continued their love affair with cavalry, and had to make extensive use of mercenaries in their infantry (Swiss preferred) because their national forces were too busy fielding vast piles of gendarmes with zero tactics developed to deal with the new battlefield.

The pikewall, provided it is used properly, is recognised through history, and proven by combat record, to be the most powerful pre-gunpowder infantry formation you can get. Head-on, they crush everything except another pikewall. Straight up. Even the Romans knew this; they beat their Greek rivals by being more flexible, which allowed elements of Roman armies to independently take advantage of pike formations that had become increasingly more dense and unwieldy since Alexander had popped his clogs. If you can break them up with terrain or outflank them, sure, you can do the damage, but otherwise it's all over. Spain ended up developing the Tercio explicitly as a reaction to their targeteers being effortlessly steamrolled in a straight fight with pikes in Italy.

If the game were 'realistic', European-style Renaissance pikemen would be the final and ultimate melee unit before gunpowder (with Spain taking the actual Tercio as a special unit). They'll crush longswordsmen. It's not even a competition. Pikemen came back because Europe had restored an equal, more really, level of wealth, organisation, and national centralisation since the collapse of the Ancient era to allow people to consider it possible to raise significant national forces on a somewhat more permanent basis. For a long time the feudal system was simply the best way to get large forces into the field, but it came at a cost of said forces being highly disparate and dependent upon whatever the various noblemen chose to bring, which precludes maintaining well drilled pikemen (badly drilled pikemen are called 'victims').

Swordsmen and 'longswordsmen' (latter actually more like Men-At-Arms, but whatever) should be a separate branch for those lucky enough to have iron...everyone else should have spearmen contesting swordsmen and some other generic medieval men at arms unit contesting longswordsmen, then both upgrade into pikemen.