Why are the Zulu always in Civilization

[Bridog7]

If canada were to be in Civ i think the leader should be either Mckenzie, Trudeau or Creatian. Special Unit Mountie, National wonder CN Tower Special building House of Commons. But Canada will probably never be in CIV

 

[TheMeInTeam]

ok, but Genghis Khan, Mao, Stalin and basically every other leader besides Lincoln and Ghandi are allowed in the game???

Indeed, civ IV is covered in leaders with a lot of blood on their long-dead hands, and that kind doesn't wash off.

Nothing Israel has done or can do can outpace the horrors that have occurred in civ's past enough use that as a viable reason to avoid including them. The same could be said for almost any civ in the game.

Civ wouldn't be much of a game if only innocent leaders were included.

 

[dannythefool]

I cannot think of any great achievements the Zulu accomplished other than get their butts kicked by a couple of British regiments.

It looks like they chose peoples who had great leaders. If that is the case, then the getting their butts kicked by the British came after Shaka's death. Shaka is the guy who singlehandedly transformed a small tribe to an empire, he invented the impi (regiment), he invented the chain of command, he invented the spear and the cow hide shield that the impi unit is using in CIV. (Yes I know that other civs had those things thousands of years earlier, but there was no contact yet and most of southern Africa was still a large number of tiny tribes.)

Most of the civs on your list don't even come close to these kinds of achievements. Many of them just migrated around, to be assimilated later, and you will find the leaders who subdued them in Civ.

The Shaka AI plays somewhat accurately btw., the real Shaka went after his weak neighbours first too ;-)

1. Israel/Hebrew

What did they achieve besides fighting each other?

2. Austrians

As a descendant of the Holy Roman Empire, they arguably are in the game. The first Austrian emperor was the last Holy Roman emperor (Franz II). Most of Austria was part of the HRE, at least after Charlemagne (who is in the game, of course) expanded it a bit back in the 8th century. Many of the HRE emperors were Austrians, one other notable one being Charles VI, who conquered Hungary as archduke of Austria and emperor of the HRE.

3. Pueblo

Arguably, they are in the game as Native Americans. It's far from accurate to combine all native American peoples into one led by Sitting Bull of course, but there is only so much room in the game for civs. Nothing against more native American leaders though, but you won't find records of a notable Pueblo leader.

4. Songhai

As a descendant from Mali (they rebelled), they are probably not in the game for the same reasons as the Pueblo. They lasted for less than 200 years too. Mali didn't last longer, but it was larger. It's hard to find long-lasting large empires in the history of Africa, at least western and southern.

5. Libyans

They didn't do much besides sitting there and being conquered. Their major achievement was controlling Egypt during the 22nd dynasty, but Egypt is already in the game. No other great leaders that I'm aware of.

6. Nubians

Same as the Lybians, they controlled Egypt during the 25th dynasty but didn't do much apart from that. I don't know if these leaders were somewhere on the list of leaders for Egypt, but Egypt had a tonne of great leaders (as can be expected from an empire that lasted this long) and two of them are already in the game.

7. Hittites

There is a civ in there somewhere, but it's hard to find. They did conquer a large part of the world (in terms of 2nd millennium BC), but we know next to nothing about them. Also the one time that were successful with their conquest plunged the empire into anarchy and almost killed it off. They took a lot of time to recover, but eventually disappeared after that.

8. Assyrians

I think they were left out because they have a lower profile than their neighbours. Hammurabi eventually conquered their empire for Babylon.

9. Phoenicians (probably should take Carthage place since they FOUNDED Carthage)

Them founding Carthage is not the entire story. Carthage was one of the many Phoenician city-states. Essentially, the Carthaginian empire *is* Phoenicia. The term "Carthaginian Empire" means that it was ruled from the city-state of Carthage, as opposed to the city-state of Tyre (that ruled Phoenicia until Alexander conquered it).
It would have been nice to play the ancient Phoenicians though. There is a nice civ for archipelago maps somewhere in there. ;-)

10. Macedonians

They are in the game, Alexander was a Macedonian king. Yes, the game says he was Greek, but then, ancient Macedonia perceived itself as a Greek kingdom as well (and so did the other Greeks, as witnessed by the Macedonian kings participating in the Olympic games, which were only open to Greeks.)

11. Hungarians

They didn't really do much. The Hungarian kingdom existed for a good while, but they apparently didn't have any qualifying great leaders. They did beat back a couple of Holy Roman invasions and a Mongol invasion but did not achieve much otherwise. During a large part of their history they were controlled by outside forces, such as the Ottomans or the Austrians (as part of the HRE).

12. Cherokee

See above on native Americans. Although the Cherokee don't seem to have had any notable leaders.

13. Anazi

Assuming you meant he Anasazi, you already mentioned the Pueblo. The problem with these culturally defined groups is that there are no great leaders (that we know of) who qualify for Civ leaders.

14. Goths

They are in the game as the barbarians. The term "barbarian" originated in Rome and the Goths were one of the peoples the Romans called barbarians. No great leaders that we know of but that makes them perfect for Civ barbarians.

15. Huns

No contest. They had a huge empire (for a short while) and they had a great leader in Attila. Would love to see them in the game.

16. Poland

They just sat there. No great leaders. There one single notable acquisition was some lands from the Order of the Teutonic Knights, who themselves were much more notable for their own empire and are not in the game either. Although we arguably have enough empires from that area, with both the HRE (that the Order had lands within) and the two German leaders as well.

17. Aboringine

Which aborigines? The American ones are in the game under Sitting Bull. Most other peoples that we refer to with this term didn't really do much besides sitting around and being subdued by vastly superior European military late in the game.

18. Polynesians

Again just a cultural group, and it's kind of hard to find a great leader within a cultural group. There never was a Polynesian empire, just a bunch of tribes.

19. Brazil

For the most important part of their history, they were a colony of Portugal, although the Portuguese king in the game (João II) was before Brazil was colonized. Brazil didn't do much though besides sitting there until it declared independence. Slightly before that, it was the seat of the Portuguese government for a short time when the king fled from Napoleon, but then, Portugal is in the game. No notable native civilizations either, only a few tribes before Portugal came.

20. Tibetans

No contest. Not sure which leader, but there certainly should be one...

21. Mitanni (Ancient Syria)

They are probably left out because they didn't distinguish themselves against their neighbours Egypt and Babylon. I think most records we have are Egyptian, which tells us something...

22. Philistines

They didn't do a whole lot until most of the region was conquered by Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar.

23. Lombardy

The Lombardy is borderline meaningless in history before it was part of Rome as Gallia Cisalpina. There was some short period of independence between the fall of Rome and when Charlemagne annexed it for the HRE, during which they basically just sat there. Milan was important later on, but also only independent for a short while.

24. Bulgaria

No contest, they deserve to be in the game and Krum makes an excellent great leader.

25. Fatamids Caliphite

The Fatimid Caliphate was just one period during which Egypt was ruled by Arabian dynasties. Egypt was the centre of the Fatimid Caliphate's empire, and there already are two great leaders from Egypt in the game. One more from Arab Egypt certainly wouldn't hurt, but there are other civilizations that aren't even in the game that probably should have priority.

26. Ghana

Arguably the Mali empire was much more notable in that region, eventually even assimilating Ghana.

27. Any Civilization currently in Civ4

Shaka certainly achieved more than Germany, for example. Germany is a bit overrepresented in my opinion with two leaders in addition to the Holy Roman Empire, which had much more impact on history than any other German empire.

28. Iroqouis

Some lack of great leaders. Native Americans are already in the game, I'd love to see another leader for them, but the Iroqouis didn't have any.

29. Apache

As a cultural group, a bunch of tribes instead of an empire, it's hard to find a great leader for them...

30. Mississippian

Same applies here. Note though that despite the absence of great leaders, some of these native American cultures do appear in the game in city names. In the case of the Mississippians, their largest chiefdom Cahokia is one of the Native American city names.

31. Olmec

Let me see, ancient people, two city sites that we know of, no great leaders, Aztecs (who ruled an area close-by, but much larger, later in history) are in the game, most records we have are in the Aztec language ("Olmec" itself is a term from that language)... their primary achievement was sitting there, and doing so *first*. Not material for a civ in Civilization unless you want one for OCC with cultural victory (that is later spoiled by the Aztecs under Montezuma ).

32. Minoans (Crete)

Would really love to see them in the game, although they didn't achieve as much as Shaka. They basically sat there and traded, but I'd like it if trade played a bigger role in Civ. It certainly did in real history.

33. Italian City States (Venice, Pisa, & Genoa) in Middle Ages

They could be in the game, although Pisa and Genoa were nominally ruled by the HRE emperor in the Middle Ages. They did some expansion, but none of them achieved as much as the Zulu under Shaka.

34. Scotland

Hard to see how they would be a separate civilisation. We have Boudica as a representant leader for the various British tribes and for later times, we have Elizabeth as an English leader, whose successor on the English throne was King James VI of Scotland (as James I). Why was he her successor? Because he was a descendant of Henry VII. I think he was a cousin of Liz. Hard to find a decisively Scottish leader in there.

35. Ireland

Find me a great leader who ruled Ireland and was not an English king...

36. Medea

Assuming you are thinking of the Medeans in Mesopotamia, I would argue that they are in the game with Cyrus as a descendant of the last Medean king. Until Cyrus the Great, Persia was a subordinate state to Medea, but Cyrus got the Persians to support his revolt against his grandfather, the last Medean king, and thus formed the empire of Medea and Persia.

37. Bactrans

I think Bactra should count toward the Persian civilization as well, which is in the game with two leaders. Cyrus is the one who acquired it for Persia, and not much is known about it from before that except that it is very old and that the prophet Zoroaster was born there (who Cyrus was a follower of).

38. Vandals

Similar to the Goths, the other original barbarians. But I think they make for a better civ than the Goths. Would be nice to have them in the game especially as we have several other leaders and civs who fought them and they expanded a lot and made hallmark strategic decisions as well.

39. Parthians

The only records that we have date from times where Parthia was already part of Persia or shortly before, part of Medea. Not material for a civ.

40. Dacia

From that area, I would prefer to have Bulgaria in the game instead.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

A lot of civs "just sat there". Are you looking for notable, successful wars? What qualifies a civ as not "just sitting there"? Land doesn't move.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

A lot of civs "just sat there". Are you looking for notable, successful wars? What qualifies a civ as not "just sitting there"? Land doesn't move.

qft Funny how people have to kill to be seen as important...
About Venice, it definately was a major state in medieval time.
But... Shaka is way too cool to be removed... how would we be crushed otherwise

Cheers

 

[dannythefool]

qft Funny how people have to kill to be seen as important...
About Venice, it definately was a major state in medieval time.

They don't have to kill or expand or anything - Gandhi is in the game, some other leaders who are in the game are also not exactly known for waging wars, such as Victoria, João II, even Pacal is more known for architecture and art. Coincidentally, Venice did kill and expand.

But... Shaka is way too cool to be removed... how would we be crushed otherwise

It's hard to find someone who compares to a guy who is born as an unacknowledged child, overtakes his tribe, revolutionizes weaponry, military structure, strategy and the entire social structure of his tribe and those surrounding it, and finally builds a comparatively huge empire in the 18th and early 19th century.

Venice on the other hand was one of many interchangeable Italian city-states. They didn't do much that distinguished them from Genoa or Pisa or Ragusa and so on.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

19. Brazil

(For most of their history), they were a colony of Portugal, although the Portuguese king in the game (João II) was before Brazil was colonized. Brazil didn't do much though besides sitting there until it declared independence. Slightly before that, it was the seat of the Portuguese government for a short time when the king fled from Napoleon, but then, Portugal is in the game. No notable native civilizations either, only a few tribes before Portugal came.

There, I corrected it for you. How can you say the colonial period was more important than when Brazil went to war with Paraguay and killed two thirds of its male population? Or when the Itaipu Dam was built, making the American Society of Civil Engineering consider it one of the Wonders of the Modern World along with the CN Tower, the Empire State Building and the Golden Gate Bridge? Or when Brazil teamed with the Allies in WWII allowing the US to effectively control the South Atlantic? Or when Brazil began the best anti-AIDS program in the world? Or when its new capital was built in the middle of nowhere, making Brasilia the only city built in the 20th century to achieve the status of Historical and Cultural Heritage of Humanity by UNESCO? More important than becoming one of the few countries that can build nuclear weapons but chose not to?

I do agree that Brazil has not had a deep enough impact in the world to make it to Civilization. But, then again, neither have the Zulu.

 

[dannythefool]

There, I corrected it for you. How can you say the colonial period was more important than when Brazil went to war with Paraguay and killed two thirds of its male population?

Brazil went to war largely unprepared as a response to something that really shouldn't have concerned them. Who wants to play incompetents...

Or when the Itaipu Dam was built, making the American Society of Civil Engineering consider it one of the Wonders of the Modern World along with the CN Tower, the Empire State Building and the Golden Gate Bridge?

Oh, that must be why the Chinese are in Civ. Because they built the Three Gorges Dam! Now I finally get it. It has *nothing* to do with their other achievements. You just have to build a dam.

Or when Brazil teamed with the Allies in WWII allowing the US to effectively control the South Atlantic?

In 1942? Resulting in German submarines sinking a large number of Brazilian merchant ships? They only declared war after that. Brazil even sent a stack to Italy with some reasonable success. But did that leave a lasting impression? No. The war would have been won by the allies regardless. In other words, Brazil officially remained neutral until the war was decided and then they picked the winning side.

Or when Brazil began the best anti-AIDS program in the world?

The best anti-AIDS programme *among developing countries*. Just because Brazil has about as many HIV infected inhabitants than the USA have that doesn't mean they're anywhere near the top. Even Mexico has lower HIV prevalence.

Or when its new capital was built in the middle of nowhere, making Brasilia the only city built in the 20th century to achieve the status of Historical and Cultural Heritage of Humanity by UNESCO?

Being late to the party is grounds for inclusion in Civ how?

I do agree that Brazil has not had a deep enough impact in the world to make it to Civilization. But, then again, neither have the Zulu.

Brazil certainly had a deep impact on the modern world, being one of the more important economic powers these days. But it were the Portuguese who laid the foundation for that. Anyway, personally I'd certainly like to see Brazil or Canada or Switzerland in Civ, but this thread was started to question the Zulu's inclusion and I can see countless reasons why they should be included before Brazil - I already wrote that I think they're in there for Shaka, who certainly did distinguish himself as a great leader (or not so great if you were one of his enemies or even a child born in his lands, but the same is true for the Romans).

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

And what about the great Czech nation? All right... I tell u guys I love this game and I always play as Czech. They almost always get their bud kicked in real life but in the game I try to make them great and that what turns me on...

 

[thekaje]

Venice on the other hand was one of many interchangeable Italian city-states. They didn't do much that distinguished them from Genoa or Pisa or Ragusa and so on.

lol. you take so long to say so many wrong things. it's hilarious.

 

[ChiefTonfa]

after reading about shake and the zulu in civlopedia, i think they're awesome. shaka was a legendary bad ass and he turned his tribe into one of the most hardcore cultures i've ever heard of. i didn't know about them much before civ but now i'll always remember and associate zulu with being badass. so i for one am really glad they were included. i talk about how i wish more UU were overpowered like the roman praets, and the impi is definitely a case of that. no one was as tough as those guys! i think they deserve a spearman that moves two, AND has a strength bonus, like maybe a 5 not 4, or a 100 percent vs melee.

 

[Grey Fox]

Maybe this image gives one reason to why Zulu is in the civ games.

Spoiler :

Mali and Ethiopia are new additions to the franchise. Consider if they were gone, and then consider if Zulu were gone.

Disclaimer: I know the map isn't perfect

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

If for you brazil is portugal, and most south america is spain, why north africa and half north america isn't french?
I am not sure the answer can be found with this kind of logic...

Cheers

 

[Grey Fox]

If for you brazil is portugal, and most south america is spain, why north africa and half north america isn't french?
I am not sure the answer can be found with this kind of logic...

Because the Africas have lots more indigenous population than those parts of the Americas had (or so I presume).
Plus the disclaimer said the map wasn't perfect - I also didn't map out the entirety of Rome or Mongolia at its largest. (and byzantine is just the logo )

EDIT:
Though the Americas are also underrepresented.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

okee... I saw your disclaimer just after posting

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I really get a kick out of these threads. I'm going to sidestep the religion thing altogether because as one of those horrible, hateful Catholics, the OP isn't going to listen to me anyway.

There was a big huge thread about this last year, and it was pretty funny, but of course it got locked. Somebody (I can't remember whom) said something about every civ being in the game for a specific reason. I thought about this, and I think that I've figured it out.

Marketing!

Yes, that's right. Every civ is in the game because it fits into at least some of the following criteria:

1. It has been a significant player on the world stage, or it's omission would have people upset and they simply can't leave it out. (America, China, Russia, the UK.)
2. It has significant historical value, either recently, or in the past.
3. We all learned about them in grade school, and for most of them we at least recognize the name of the civ, or perhaps it's leader.
4. The civ represents a region of the world which Firaxis felt was underrepresented in the game, and thus chose a country to flesh out that particular geographical area.
5. The inclusion of the civ or leader does not provoke a hot-button, knee-jerk, controversial response. The included civ offends the fewest amount of people. This is why Hitler and Pol Pot aren't in the game, for instance.

Civ was really made for those of us in the western world, and particularly North America, because that's where the money is. It's geared toward western culture and what most of us know of it from our history classes in school as children. Those of us who have gone on to higher learning may have had courses in history which filled out the details of the less than stellar accomplishments of Stalin and Mao for instance. Some of us are history buffs and know a bit more. Those are the people who ask the question "Why is civ x in this game and not civ y?" And they can give good reasons for each. Most people probably don't care, and the designers know it.

I honestly believe that Firaxis set out to offend no one, but still tried to give the game a "worldly" flavor, and a sense of historical importance. As an example: The Khmer. They were at one time the second largest empire in southeast Asia, but I'll bet that a lot of us had to look them up in Wikipedia or something. I'm willing to bet that they were included because the designers found a "hole" in the game. A region that had little or no representation. "Hmmm. We can't use Viet Nam, the Americans will freak out. Cambodia's a no-no as well. Hmmm." So they chose a civ to represent that actually did have some historical accomplishments, and were able to flesh out the region.

As for the Zulu, well, why not? Africa is poorly represented in the game. That might be because of what a couple of people mentioned above. Small, loose empires, or basically tribal societies with little or no cohesion, and that completely makes sense. Everybody has heard about the Masai, for example. I personally would like to see them included because their culture is interesting, their reputation for bravery is well known, and currently they are doing a number of things to help with the conservation of wildlife in the African habitat. They won't be included because their contribution to history is not enough, they are basically a tribal society, and they don't have a well recognized leader. Shaka has been in a few western movies, and many of us learned about the problems the British had in South Africa during the Colonial period. Most of us have heard of the Zulu wars. It's just brand recognition.

And remember, the game's designers have to submit the list of civs to the legal department before the game goes out to the store shelves. Given the fact that anyone will sue anybody for anything these days, I'm surprised that we have a game at all.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Marketing!

not funny! you told the answer too soon! What happened to your avatar? He wanted to mess with Shaka?

Cheers

 

[dannythefool]

Because the Africas have lots more indigenous population than those parts of the Americas had (or so I presume).

It's not that Brazil didn't have a sizable indigenous population. You will actually find many reserves in Brazil today and a very large number of descendants among the Brazilian population. But when Portugal came, these people lived mostly nomadically. No mentionable wars were fought, they were assimilated and partially enslaved with no real resistance. There is no material for a civ with a great leader in there.

The more famous civs from Southern America are all in the game, the Inca in what is Peru and Chile today, the Maya around southern Mexico and the Aztecs, also in Mexico.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

What happened to your avatar? He wanted to mess with Shaka?

Cheers

I'm celebrating the new Terminator movie. She'll change back soon.

Btw, I love your avvy. She's very pretty.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I'm celebrating the new Terminator movie. She'll change back soon.

I hope he is as good as the 2nd... have to see that

Btw, I love your avvy. She's very pretty.

I agree