Why are the Zulu always in Civilization

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I have said all I want to say about the religious topic other than one more point. Yes, the Catholic Church itself was often not responsible for the acts because priests apposed it but Kings and Queens supported it for political reasons. Throughout history, politicians have used religion as a means to support their agendas (in fact they still do today). The Crusades were more politically motivated then religiously motivated if you get in depth about them. Also the Crusades did start due to Seljuk Turks invasion of Byzantine territory and defeat of the Byzantines at Manzikert. The Pope saw it as a means to get Europeans to stop killing each other while at the same time helping a fellow Christian nation (even if they were not Catholic). It was actually ingenius in that it stop the fighting between European nations and turned their war-like energy against an outside foe which was encroaching on Europe. It would be like a religion today rallying the Earth to battle an outside Alien force that is threatening us.

Back to the Zulu debate:

The poster that listen all my nations and put see above on half of them really hasn't read up on these civilizations.

Assyria conquered the known WORLD at one time.

Minoans invented Plumbing, the equivalent of what is harbors and seafaring on civilization since they were the first maritime civilization, they also invented on of the first Alphabet.

The legend of Atlantis and the Legend of the Minotaur both originated from the Minoans. IMO they deserve a spot over the Zulu. However, as you said Europe is crowded and Crete is really small. (BTW they were the first official European Civilization).

Israel accomplished quite a lot during their kingdom period and even beat off the powerful Greek Hellenic Dynasties in the Maccabee revolt.

Okay, I can call my house the 'world' and believe that there is nothing else, therefore I have conquered the known world. I bet the Easter Islanders thought of the world as Easter Island and very little else.
 
i thought about you know, people in their most desperate hour, and for some reason religion is their only hope.....but i think that, if people never had a concept of religion before then, they would end up finding the strength in themselves. thats what i think. and if they didnt, maybe they just suck...i mean, we evolved from animals that lived alone in the forest at night trying not to get eaten, they didn't have religion and they made it.
 
Marketing!

Yes, that's right. Every civ is in the game because it fits into at least some of the following criteria:

1. It has been a significant player on the world stage, or it's omission would have people upset and they simply can't leave it out. (America, China, Russia, the UK.)
2. It has significant historical value, either recently, or in the past.
3. We all learned about them in grade school, and for most of them we at least recognize the name of the civ, or perhaps it's leader.
4. The civ represents a region of the world which Firaxis felt was underrepresented in the game, and thus chose a country to flesh out that particular geographical area.
5. The inclusion of the civ or leader does not provoke a hot-button, knee-jerk, controversial response. The included civ offends the fewest amount of people. This is why Hitler and Pol Pot aren't in the game, for instance.

I mostly agree with this (wanted to say it myself, you jerk-ette :p ) but I'd like to add these two:
6. The civ needs a leader (no leader, no civ; but to be honest, it's not the most difficult part, we have Boudica after all :sarcasm: )
7. The leader can be enough without any other considerations (let be honest, Carthage is mostly in the game because of Hannibal)

And one of the most important point is still here: even if every civ in the game corresponds to one or several of these criteria, That does not mean that every civ corresponding to one of these should be inside the game.

Considering both the geographical aspect and the leader aspect, I'm personally happy that Shaka and the Zulu are in game :)
 
I'm glad the Zulus are in the game too. Another reason they're in the game is because they're culturally unique from everyone else. They speak a bantu language, a language that no other civilization in the game speaks. All the civs you listed share a common language family with all the other civs in the game.
 
Back to the Zulu debate:

The poster that listen all my nations and put see above on half of them really hasn't read up on these civilizations.

It's true, I haven't read up on ALL of them (but I doubt you have either).

Assyria conquered the known WORLD at one time.

Two problems with that. First, the 'known world' is relative. Second, sheer land-area isn't a good reason to include a Civilization; if it was, Canada would be in there too. Inclusion is really based on three things: impact on world history, impact on modern history, and marketing ability. Assyria's impact on Mesopotamian and world history is overshadowed by Sumer (first true 'civilization', first city-state, organized agriculture, religious influences over the region, etc.) and to a greater extent Babylon and Persia - in a strictly non-relative sense, this is why they were included while Assyria wasn't.

Minoans invented Plumbing, the equivalent of what is harbors and seafaring on civilization since they were the first maritime civilization, they also invented on of the first Alphabet. The legend of Atlantis and the Legend of the Minotaur both originated from the Minoans. IMO they deserve a spot over the Zulu. However, as you said Europe is crowded and Crete is really small. (BTW they were the first official European Civilization).

Minoa, I agree, made significant achievements for their time; however, this achievements were (relative to the time period) soon overshadowed by independent Greek creations.

You also criticized Aborigines for being nothing but natives in huts but that is what the Zulu were. They were not even advanced by African standards.

I also agree that the Zulu were barely 'advanced' (if that), but again, it's all about marketability. How many people have actually heard of the Songhai? How many people would want to play as the Aborigines?

It's all about marketability. That's why Zulu > Israel.
 
@Vol
Almost all of the civs you listed are in Civ Gold 5.0.

I'm actually with TMIT on this one, the more the merrier. I mean, part of civ is the "what if" factor. What if the Polynesians had done more than simply sit on the beach eating fish, and get in little coracles and find themselves on a new island. I mean, what if they had discovered Japan, built a surprise army, invaded and conquered it?

What if the Zulu had thrown the Euro's out of S. Africa, and then consolidated Southern Africa under their control.

What if the Nez Perce had defeated the US cavalry?

As regards to religion, I myself am a follower of Yeshua, and therefore a pacifist, but I cannot think that you can point to protestantism as a beacon of pacifism. Quite the contrary. There was the 30 years war between the Catholics and Protestants. There was Cromwell. There's Bush, who utilized protestant rhetoric to galvanize the American nation to support an economic war under the guise of self-defense from religious fanatics. A signifcant base of his support comes from Protestants (especially Baptists) who believe that war is viable and just. There's Luther who impregnated Germany with the seeds of anti-semitism that grew to maturity under Hitler. There's kingdom now theology. When I examine modern American Protestants today, the vast majority of them are warmongers.

I've actually just started writing a novel about the early Christians and why they were detested by the Romans, which was largely because of their pacifism. Christian converts were required to leave the army and abandon their magisterial posts because such duties conflicted with their "hippie" culture. For an empire, its continued existence is predicated upon a martial nature; the Christian pacifist ethic directly opposed this necessity. Nero could not tolerate his soldiers not wanting to kill anymore.

Emperor Constantine destroyed Christianity when he turned it into the Roman state religion, and used it to strengthen a national identity. Not everyone withing the Roman empire was Roman (that is, ethnically the same), but everyone could accept and follow a religion that had crossed ethnic borders. Constantine simply observed that Christianity could suit his purposes of further uniting and controlling a vastly heterogenous empire. He turned a pacifist religion into a war religion. He controlled the appointments of bishops, and therefore controlled the nature of theology. The changed climate that he created resulted in the militaristic theology of Augustin.

Yet, having stated this, this sentiment has not carried over into protestantism today. Luther and Calvin both derive their theology from the militarism of Augustin. In fact, the princes of the many German principalities simply became "little popes" in their regions who held the right of selecting clergy and simply used the new religion to create a unique national (princedom) identity to galvanize his people and solidify his rule. A bunch of new Constantines. In fact, when the german peasants accepted Christianity, they suddenly yearned for egalitarian ideals that would result in freedom from the tyranical rule of a despotic aristocracy and to set up a democracy in the 1500s. Of course, the german nobility could not tolerate such enlightened thinking and brutally subjugated the peasant revolt, killing several hundred thousand of these new protestants. Luther himself, took the side of the aristocracy and supported the slaughter of his new converts.

Although the German princes would not permit freedom for their subjects, they themselves wished for freedom from Catholic political rule (the HRE), and hence these princes utilized their new religious status as reasons for autonomy and played upon the emotions of their people in exciting them to gain religious freedom from Rome. In other words, while not wanting to grant democracy to their peasants, they did at least wish to redirect their passions for freedom towards wars against the Catholic potentates.

To a lesser degree, Bush has carried on this tradition in this decade, but instead of fighting catholics, we're now fighting fanatical Moslem terrorists who are presumedly hell-bent on destroying all things holy and right within the world. For the modern American Christian, Bush preyed upon religious fears in order to harness a modern crusade, which truly, had nothing to do with the real reasons Bush wanted war with the middle east--which was that he wanted to create an oil monopoly.

Truly, Christianity is about pacifism; yet we cannot presume the same for Protestantism.

@LM
Roman Catholicism was not the only major form of Christianity until the Reformation. I think we are forgetting the Great Schism of the 11th century that resulted in two major sects of Christians: the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.

As to the Crusades, their true cause wasn't religious in nature. They simply resulted from needing to give landless, younger sons of aristocrats--who would not gain any inheritance--something to do. The Crusades existed as a mechanism for these troublesome, jealous younger sons to gain new lands, titles and responsibilities. Religious rhetoric was employed, ala Constantine/Bush, to arouse and incite the common peasants into joining into what was really a political operation.
 
I mostly agree with this (wanted to say it myself, you jerk :p )
Jerk-ette, you handsome devil, you. :p

@LM
Roman Catholicism was not the only major form of Christianity until the Reformation. I think we are forgetting the Great Schism of the 11th century that resulted in two major sects of Christians: the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.

As to the Crusades, their true cause wasn't religious in nature. They simply resulted from needing to give landless, younger sons of aristocrats--who would not gain any inheritance--something to do. The Crusades existed as a mechanism for these troublesome, jealous younger sons to gain new lands, titles and responsibilities. Religious rhetoric was employed, ala Constantine/Bush, to arouse and incite the common peasants into joining into what was really a political operation.
Thank you. I stand corrected on both counts. I forgot about the Great Schism, probably due to my overly theological (insane, pathologically strict Catholic upbringing) childhood, and an admittedly Western European ethnocentric/cultural bias. It results in me not linking Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism as two tenets of the Christian faith in (my own) common usage. An error on my part, and I hope I didn't offend anyone by that.

As for the Crusades, I can only speak on general terms, as my historical studies were a while ago, and never my best subject. I am certainly not the student of history that you are, so I will leave the education of my fellow threadmates to you on that subject. Some of these threads disintegrate into name calling too often, and get locked while many people have interesting and informative posts yet to make, or are overshadowed by the venom and rancor of the passionate, and that's unfortunate.

A thoughtful, well written post. I wish there were more like that.

EDIT: @ChiefTonfa:

Your statement of Jesus or Mohamed appearing today and being institutionalized is spot on. Prior to my "retirement", I could have shown you a whole bunch of people in just that predicament (if it didn't violate patient confidentiality, that is.) The funny thing is, some of them are very convincing. Ill, but very convincing.
 
@Vol
Almost all of the civs you listed are in Civ Gold 5.0.

I'm actually with TMIT on this one, the more the merrier. I mean, part of civ is the "what if" factor. What if the Polynesians had done more than simply sit on the beach eating fish, and get in little coracles and find themselves on a new island. I mean, what if they had discovered Japan, built a surprise army, invaded and conquered it?

What if the Zulu had thrown the Euro's out of S. Africa, and then consolidated Southern Africa under their control.

What if the Nez Perce had defeated the US cavalry?

As regards to religion, I myself am a follower of Yeshua, and therefore a pacifist, but I cannot think that you can point to protestantism as a beacon of pacifism. Quite the contrary. There was the 30 years war between the Catholics and Protestants. There was Cromwell. There's Bush, who utilized protestant rhetoric to galvanize the American nation to support an economic war under the guise of self-defense from religious fanatics. A signifcant base of his support comes from Protestants (especially Baptists) who believe that war is viable and just. There's Luther who impregnated Germany with the seeds of anti-semitism that grew to maturity under Hitler. There's kingdom now theology. When I examine modern American Protestants today, the vast majority of them are warmongers.

I've actually just started writing a novel about the early Christians and why they were detested by the Romans, which was largely because of their pacifism. Christian converts were required to leave the army and abandon their magisterial posts because such duties conflicted with their "hippie" culture. For an empire, its continued existence is predicated upon a martial nature; the Christian pacifist ethic directly opposed this necessity. Nero could not tolerate his soldiers not wanting to kill anymore.

Emperor Constantine destroyed Christianity when he turned it into the Roman state religion, and used it to strengthen a national identity. Not everyone withing the Roman empire was Roman (that is, ethnically the same), but everyone could accept and follow a religion that had crossed ethnic borders. Constantine simply observed that Christianity could suit his purposes of further uniting and controlling a vastly heterogenous empire. He turned a pacifist religion into a war religion. He controlled the appointments of bishops, and therefore controlled the nature of theology. The changed climate that he created resulted in the militaristic theology of Augustin.

Yet, having stated this, this sentiment has not carried over into protestantism today. Luther and Calvin both derive their theology from the militarism of Augustin. In fact, the princes of the many German principalities simply became "little popes" in their regions who held the right of selecting clergy and simply used the new religion to create a unique national (princedom) identity to galvanize his people and solidify his rule. A bunch of new Constantines. In fact, when the german peasants accepted Christianity, they suddenly yearned for egalitarian ideals that would result in freedom from the tyranical rule of a despotic aristocracy and to set up a democracy in the 1500s. Of course, the german nobility could not tolerate such enlightened thinking and brutally subjugated the peasant revolt, killing several hundred thousand of these new protestants. Luther himself, took the side of the aristocracy and supported the slaughter of his new converts.

Although the German princes would not permit freedom for their subjects, they themselves wished for freedom from Catholic political rule (the HRE), and hence these princes utilized their new religious status as reasons for autonomy and played upon the emotions of their people in exciting them to gain religious freedom from Rome. In other words, while not wanting to grant democracy to their peasants, they did at least wish to redirect their passions for freedom towards wars against the Catholic potentates.

To a lesser degree, Bush has carried on this tradition in this decade, but instead of fighting catholics, we're now fighting fanatical Moslem terrorists who are presumedly hell-bent on destroying all things holy and right within the world. For the modern American Christian, Bush preyed upon religious fears in order to harness a modern crusade, which truly, had nothing to do with the real reasons Bush wanted war with the middle east--which was that he wanted to create an oil monopoly.

Truly, Christianity is about pacifism; yet we cannot presume the same for Protestantism.

@LM
Roman Catholicism was not the only major form of Christianity until the Reformation. I think we are forgetting the Great Schism of the 11th century that resulted in two major sects of Christians: the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.

As to the Crusades, their true cause wasn't religious in nature. They simply resulted from needing to give landless, younger sons of aristocrats--who would not gain any inheritance--something to do. The Crusades existed as a mechanism for these troublesome, jealous younger sons to gain new lands, titles and responsibilities. Religious rhetoric was employed, ala Constantine/Bush, to arouse and incite the common peasants into joining into what was really a political operation.

Someone who has read up a lot :)...

The only part I wnat to debate with you is Luther. His group kind of had to support certain princes or face extermination. It was by sheer luck that he was able to live a normal life and was not killed.

Bush and Cromwell were hardly priests or people who pushed a religious identity. Also Bush, despite being a bad President, had somewhat legitimate reasons for going into Iraq and Afghanistan. If you start hassling the United States as being an aggressor in that situation then almost every war (even if you are defending yourself) is evil.

Either way though, well written post.
 
Also I saw a post about Hitler earlier. He really had his own warped religion. He did not recognize Jesus as the son of God and believed in a warped version of Darwinism that Germans were superior form of evolution. To be honest, Germany, Like Japan at the time, was probably more about state and leader worship than it was any other religion. Hitler only acknowledge Christ to satisfy Christians in Germany.

Back to Zulu:

Other than location, I have seen very little argument for placing them in the game and location is blown out of the water if you do other maps besides random maps.

However, I guess it is good to see them in the game. I just think there was more deserving Civs.

Assyria lasted longer then most Ancient Empires (Only Rome and Persia lasted longer I believe). They invented Siege Towers, Calvary (no power rode horses in combat effectively until Assyria), and built numerous major cities in the ancient world. Assyria ruled Egypt for a while, conquered the Hittites (or what was left of them), Babylon, most of Persia, Syria, and the Northern Kingdom of Israel. They forced Judah to pay tribute for a time but never official took out the lower kingdom of Israel.
 
They have done very little in history to deserve to be in the game. The following civilizations deserve a spot over the Zulu

1. Israel/Hebrew
2. Austrians
3. Pueblo
4. Songhai
5. Libyans
6. Nubians
7. Hittites
8. Assyrians
9. Phoenicians (probably should take Carthage place since they FOUNDED Carthage)
10. Macedonians
11. Hungarians
12. Cherokee
13. Anazi
14. Goths
15. Huns
16. Poland
17. Aboringine
18. Polynesians
19. Brazil
20. Tibetans
21. Mitanni (Ancient Syria)
22. Philistines
23. Lombardy
24. Bulgaria
25. Fatamids Caliphite
26. Ghana
27. Any Civilization currently in Civ4
28. Iroqouis
29. Apache
30. Mississippian
31. Olmec
32. Minoans (Crete)
33. Italian City States (Venice, Pisa, & Genoa) in Middle Ages
34. Scotland
35. Ireland
36. Medea
37. Bactrans
38. Vandals
39. Parthians
40. Dacia

I cannot think of any great achievements the Zulu accomplished other than get their butts kicked by a couple of British regiments.

Also I think it is a MAJOR travesty that the Jews have never made it in as a civilization. They have their own religion in the game but no civilization.

The problem with your list is that the average consumer would have never heard of most of the civilizations on that list (such as the Bactrians and the Hittites). Many of the others already have geographically/historically similar civs in the game (e.g. Austrians-> Germany, Macedonians->greece, Italy->Rome). Also, you listed a bunch of Native American tribes which are included in the umbrella of the Native American Civ.

With regards to a jewish state, as others have pointed out that would tend to create some amount of controversy. The current Israeli state was created by taking the victims (Jews) of an atrocious genocide at the hands of a horrific government (The Third Reich) and relocating them to land in the middle east. In the process, another group of people (the Palestinians) were forcibly relocated and forced to endure other forms of discrimination to benefit the first group (the Jews). The bitter irony of these events is that in the early days of the third reich, Jews were forcibly relocated and/or suffered discrimination at their homes and places of business, something which is to this day happening to Palestinians as a result of standard Israeli policy. The Israeli state is quick to remember the victims of the holocaust, but it is even quicker at turning a blind eye to its own systematic domestic discrimination. Now , one might point out that many other nations in civ have similar blotches (afore mentioned Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia (why is Stalin in this game?)), but consider that the Jewish religion also tends to display it's people as God's chosen people in exile. For millennia, the jewish people have integrated, contributed to, but not been fully assimilated into countless civilizations.

Gah, what a long paragraph on politics.
 
Germany has accomplished A LOT more then the Zulu, no offense. Bach, Beethoven, numerous technological inventions. GREATEST Military power in the world from 1880-1942.

Sure they did. But they are in the game with two leaders and the Zulu only have one, so that's okay. Especially given that Germany managed to lose plenty of wars with that superior military ;-)

Israel is pretty much responsible for a lot of the American and European legal system and for all the religion in the West.

Also religion was a motivation factor in the start of Democracy (the Bible was even the first book to recognize equal rights for women and a democratic system in the way church decides matters) and for abolition and human rights movements. So in a way a lot of our legal system, philosophy, and other ideas can be dated to the Hebrew Civilization.

It took thousands of years for those equal rights to show up anywhere so I don't think the Bible did a good job, if it was involved at all. Europe had Democracy more than two thousand years ago. And for the legal system I'd place more weight on things like the Magna Carta, which was entirely political.

Not to mention the Bible if you take it for literary and historic value.

As far as that is concerned, it's in the game. I'm not only talking about Christianity as a religion you can found, but also about leaders like Isabella (okay, so she is not a good example of a good Christian, but at least the Bible greatly influenced her actions).

Assyria was actual more powerful and lasted longer then either Babylonian Empires, they just do not have the name recognition.

I think we just don't know as much about Assyria because it's too old.

Aborigines were the natives to Australia.

It's a general term refering to indigenous peoples. In the case of the Australians, we have the same problem that we have with Brazilians: Lots of small tribes, none of which stood out. Hard to find someone to put into a game as a great leader.

Mali and Ethopia should have been in the game before the Zulu IMO. (Basically instead of Zulu in Civ1, 2, 3, either of these two would have been more proper).

Well, they fixed that ;-)

Nubia was famous for building Kush, a major trade and cultural center in ancient times.

Not so famous, I think. Their fame is overshadowed by Egypt, which has much better brand recognition.

Fatamid Caliphite started in Tunisia, not Egypt and ruled more then Egypt. They were the first Shitte Islamic nation.

Sure they ruled more than Egypt, but Egypt ended up the centre of their empire. The Fatimids were the ones who built Cairo and later used it as their capital.

Minoans invented plumbing, calenders, and started full-scale naval trade. They were believe to be the rumored Atlantis.

I think we don't know enough about them. They also certainly weren't the only ones who had plumbing, calendars, naval trade, or are believed to be Atlantis...

Carthage WAS NOT the leading Phoenician city. Tyre was. Sidon and Byrut were also bigger then Carthage. Carthage was a colony of Phoenicia. The homeland of the Phoenicians is modern day Lebanon.

Not initially, but after Alexander conquered Tyre and Sidon, Carthage established its dominant position among the Northern African Phoenician city-states. Tyre fell only about one hundred years before Hannibal's time. But I think Carthage is in the game mainly for Hannibal, who was one of the greatest generals in recorded history.
 
The problem with your list is that the average consumer would have never heard of most of the civilizations on that list

To be fair, I had never heard of most of the civs in the game when I first started playing Civilization. Then again, I started playing Civ 1 when I was 10 or 11 years old back in 91...

I will admit that Civ taught me a lot of things I never would have learned in school. When something pops out at me in the game, I'll dig through the civilopedia and start reading. It's very nice to learn so much from a very entertaining game.

Anyways, my point is that just because a Civ isn't known well to the mainstream public is no reason to disclude it from the list. If anything that's a good reason to include it. I think that most of the people who would enjoy Civ would enjoy learning about an ancient culture they haven't heard of before. And those who wouldn't care, would be see something like "over 50 civs to choose from" as more of a selling point.

I guess my point is, there's no reason to disclude civs from the game, so long as the development time and budgets are still met.

Also, to answer the original topic's question, I think that everybody is looking far far far too deep into the reasoning for the Zulu's to be included. I think it was just that there was no civ in South Africa, and the Zulus stood out as a noteable civ. After that, Zululand got grandfathered in to Civ games. Stop thinking complicated, Civ was released in the early 90s. Video games weren't as deep and in-depth back then.
 
Protestants did not invade Bethlehem to take the Church of Nativity. I do not know any Christian sects other than the Catholics that did that.

Of course not, Protestants weren't even around at that time. Catholics don't hold a monopoly on fanaticism, Protestants can be just as over-zealous. Just look at all the problems that occured in Northern Ireland for so many years, and someone already mentioned the KKK. Protestants just happened to show up when society was much more structured, and religious intolerance wasn't as easy to get away with on as large of a scale as the Crusades were.
 
1. What criteria define a "civilization"? Winning wars, inventing stuff, amassing land/wealth, lasting a long time, etc?? I'm sure there's a thread about this somewhere, but I don't see a problem in re-discussing it here (that's what forums are for).

I believe for CIV, an important part is that there is a face and a name as well. Pretty much all civs in the game and those not in the game did win wars at some point, but for them to be included in a game that history has to be recorded reasonably well and there has to be a hallmark leader. You can see that with Boudica, whose tribe did not really stand out - but today she is a popular figure in Britain and widely known outside Britain. And thanks to the Romans, we have records.

2. Why do people in the U.S. have name recognition for Shaka of the Zulus? Or in other words, why did someone bother making movies about him/them? Obviously someone thought the Zulus were movie-worthy, perhaps the same criteria could be applied to being a notable civ.

There were a couple movies, but I think the criteria for those were questionable. As far as I remember they focused on the battle of Isandlwahna. But then that is a great reason to include the Zulu in Civ, because they won that battle with spears and their cowhide shields against the British riflemen and artillery. Shaka was dead then, but the culture and society structure that produced a force of spearmen able to successfully beat the British forces was his creation.
 
Of course not, Protestants weren't even around at that time. Catholics don't hold a monopoly on fanaticism, Protestants can be just as over-zealous. Just look at all the problems that occured in Northern Ireland for so many years, and someone already mentioned the KKK. Protestants just happened to show up when society was much more structured, and religious intolerance wasn't as easy to get away with on as large of a scale as the Crusades were.
You left something out about Northern Ireland. It's problems are largely due to excessive zealotry on BOTH sides, not just by the Protestants. The Catholic factions have their fair share of stupidity to be proud of as well. With the religious and social climate being what it is, the added pressures and turmoil of the political situation only fan the flames, and divide the people even more.

It's sad. Really pathetic, in fact. But you can't blame only the Protestants for the problems there.
 
guys i am from zululand n yeah sure its true they needed to fill in space for sub saharan africa- but it would be a good idea to see lots n lots of barb states even the great civs start up as barbs and then build themselves up into true civilizations.
As for the list of barbs we could include many other african, indian, chinese, south east aisian and other european countries- but i am sure this wil require bigger maps-less graphics andfar faster cpus

as for the zulus my president is one and we all laugh at him- check out the zapiro cartoons for jacob zuma- oh yeah zulu people number 30million in southern africa and also have the highest aids infection rate in the world i.e 40-50%
 
To be fair, I had never heard of most of the civs in the game when I first started playing Civilization. Then again, I started playing Civ 1 when I was 10 or 11 years old back in 91...
List of civs in Civ 1:

America
Azteca
Babylon
China
Egypt
England
France
Germany
Greece
India
Mongolia
Rome
Russia
Zululand

Uh... :lol:
 
guys i am from zululand n yeah sure its true they needed to fill in space for sub saharan africa- but it would be a good idea to see lots n lots of barb states even the great civs start up as barbs and then build themselves up into true civilizations.
As for the list of barbs we could include many other african, indian, chinese, south east aisian and other european countries- but i am sure this wil require bigger maps-less graphics andfar faster cpus

as for the zulus my president is one and we all laugh at him- check out the zapiro cartoons for jacob zuma- oh yeah zulu people number 30million in southern africa and also have the highest aids infection rate in the world i.e 40-50%

I like this idea. I like the idea of neutral civs or minor civs as was seen in Rome Total War.

I would love to see a mixture of Civilization and the Total War series, (especially civilization bringing in actual combat strategy instead of random battles).
 
You left something out about Northern Ireland. It's problems are largely due to excessive zealotry on BOTH sides, not just by the Protestants. The Catholic factions have their fair share of stupidity to be proud of as well. With the religious and social climate being what it is, the added pressures and turmoil of the political situation only fan the flames, and divide the people even more.

It's sad. Really pathetic, in fact. But you can't blame only the Protestants for the problems there.

Well I wasn't really trying to blame the Protestants, I realize that there were/are extremists on both sides. I was just trying to point out that Protestants aren't always the goody two shoes that volbound was trying to make them out to be. They can be just as fanatical as any other religious group. Almost all of the survivalist groups that we see in the news these days, like Jimmy Jones etc. are Protestant in fact and the KKK was almost exclusively a Baptist based organization. Had the Protestants been around during the Crusades, they would more than likely have been as happy to join in as the Catholics were.
 
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