Why are Theatres so expensive?

[Zechnophobe]

This is something that's been bugging me for as long as I've played this. Theaters, on normal speed, cost a massive 250 hammers. They give a bit of culture, and have a small chance of giving +1 happiness.

Compare this to, say, public baths, or gambling houses, or all sorts of things that provide happiness, then it's obviously not costed appropriately.

And the culture bonus just isn't in line with the rediculous amount of production you have to pay for it. If you 'built' culture in a city for the time it'd take to build, you'd probably get more over the course of the game.... ... okay maybe not, but it still is really high.

I realize that culture doesn't come from many sources in this game, but it has the most use when popping that first ring, and then it's kinda 'meh' in power. If borders are your problem... well, 250 hammers gets you a lot of axemen.

 

[hbar]

I completely agree. I almost never build them - only once, when I was going after a cultural victory, and they didn't make a huge difference anyway. The cost needs to be brought down in a big way.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'll build them only if I want the Theater of Dreams, or a Bard to build (compose?) the Song of Autumn

Edit: Oh yeah, I also build these if I'm engaged in a very long war, and need everything I can to combat obscene amounts of War Weariness.

 

[Morni]

They were very nice to me when I was going for a cultural victory with the kuriotates, giving 11 happiness (10 from culture, 1 from dyes), but building them isn't much of an issue with the supercities, after all

 

[uberfish]

I think 250h is too much too, bearing in mind that drama is a dead end tech and that running culture slider is very expensive in terms of economy.

In my opinion 120h, same as the library, would be a fairer cost, or make them 180h and give them +25% culture boost.

 

[Arcite36575]

This is something that's been bugging me for as long as I've played this. Theaters, on normal speed, cost a massive 250 hammers. They give a bit of culture, and have a small chance of giving +1 happiness.

Compare this to, say, public baths, or gambling houses, or all sorts of things that provide happiness, then it's obviously not costed appropriately.

And the culture bonus just isn't in line with the rediculous amount of production you have to pay for it. If you 'built' culture in a city for the time it'd take to build, you'd probably get more over the course of the game.... ... okay maybe not, but it still is really high.

I realize that culture doesn't come from many sources in this game, but it has the most use when popping that first ring, and then it's kinda 'meh' in power. If borders are your problem... well, 250 hammers gets you a lot of axemen.

ditto, as well as dittos to everyone else's response. I never build these, unless it's very late game, I've conquered a huge city with a hostile civ nearby, and a TON of money to burn. Even then, it still isn't worth it.

 

[Ecofarm]

I think they are so expensive to water-down their midgame strength. Here's why:

You can lightbulb Drama with a great bard. This is my favorite Great Bard Spam path: Bulb Drama, get free bard, build FoL shrine, bulb commune.

Now, if your 1st 2 great people are sages (Academy and Golden Age) and your third is a bard, you can lightbulb drama pretty early. Getting drama when other civs have barely achieved their religious tech gives access to happiness far in excess of religion. With a cash-rush civic, a couple turns at 20% tech puts the necessary infrastructure (theatres) in place rather quickly.

Sure, late game theatres and the culture slider are not so great, but early game when your tech rate is crap anyway, putting 20% into culture with a theatre (and dye) is a huge boost (think, grig).

That said, I'd only do it (tech drama, period) with a Great Bard (and only because you get a free one with the tech), except in very rare need. If theatres were cheap, I would definately bulb drama and cash-rush them with my 3rd or 4th Great Person almost always. It is what...

+1 theatre
+1 theatre (from civic)
+1 theatre with dye
+1 per 10%
+1 per 10% with theatre

+5 happy at 10%, +7 happy at 20%.

At under 100 research/turn (early-mid game around festivals, think balseraph), hell yea I'll take +7 happy for 20%. The funny part: after you grow the 7 population, the 20% tech you are losing will actually be a number greater than squat. 250 hammers seems a fair cost for access, considering you can bulb the tech and get your GP investment back.

 

[slowcar]

i think 250 is way too much. dye is not there every game, the civic is rarely used and the culture slider gives happyness only to the cities that already build a theatre.
i rarely use them in any game, building disciples is a lot better for some time if you need cheap culture.

 

[onedreamer]

the civic is consumption right ? Rarely used ? It's one of my favorites. And like Ecofarm mentioned it doesn't need dyes to provide huge amounts of happyness. In short, it works better than the Gambling House because you get 2 happy where you get 1 with the gambling house, although you sacrifice money for culture, but in conquest games with extremely long wars this is a real must. Maybe people just don't bother actually conquering the whole world and quit before knowing what a monster is WW in this mod...

 

[Ecofarm]

i think 250 is way too much. dye is not there every game, the civic is rarely used and the culture slider gives happyness only to the cities that already build a theatre.

I'm pretty sure you get 1 happy for 10% slider, without theatre. With a cash rush civic (presumably military), you can have one in every city (that needs it) pretty quick.

i rarely use them in any game, building disciples is a lot better for some time if you need cheap culture.

I agree. The only time I've really needed them for happy was as Grigori or when Empy is state religion. If I have festivals (or even if I do not yet as it is cheap and gives markets) and pop a great bard, I'll incorporate them into my strat to take advantage of the opportunity.

The easiest way is with Balseraph. Use great sage 1 for academy, great sage 2 for golden age then run only a bard and have freak show to get a bard for drama + shrine (two things from one great person, what a deal).

When you get the tech for free (bulbable by bard and gives a bard) and it comes with passive benefits (slider), how can you complain if the icing on the cake costs a little?

Anyway, yea, I think 200 would be ok. But let's not get crazy here and talk as if the building is not worth SEVEN (7) happiness for 20% culture (which also helps newly conquested cities in conjuction with disciples removing anarchy).

The Guild of "cheater mercenary purchase" + disciples + culture slider = ftw. Give a city a couple culture pops, a handful of mercenaries and move on to the next. Your empire will multiply like insects in a monoculture.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Ecofarm, I feel you are really trying to compare apples and oranges here.

You can't just claim that the cost is affordable because if you pay an ADDITIONAL cost it is okay. Switching to consumption, say, from Religion, is likely to LOSE you happiness, not gain it. Putting 20% of your income into culture isn't just something you can do on a lark, and dye isn't always easy to come by. These are all pretty conditional, or costly.

You are also including the normal +1 Hapy per 10% as though it were a feature of Theatres, which it is not.

In reality, a theater built by itself without anything else going on... provides 3 culture. If you have Dye, it gives +1 Happiness.

This is just not good enough. Compare it to a Gambling house, which costs 200, and provides 2 or 3 happy faces generally when you build it, and 3 gold! These are very similar structures (Happy per 10%, +3 GNP) but one costs less, and is much more immediately useful. Heck, you even will sometimes get the half price gambling house from the undercouncil, further showing it's superiority.

 

[TheJopa]

Anyway, yea, I think 200 would be ok. But let's not get crazy here and talk as if the building is not worth SEVEN (7) happiness for 20% culture (which also helps newly conquested cities in conjuction with disciples removing anarchy).

You shouldn't count that as 7 happy from theater, as you would get 2 from 20% culture even without theater. So it's more like 5. And most likely you wouldn't run culture slider at all, so it's 3. And not have dye, so its 2. And not run consumption, so it's 1. For 300 hammers. But let's say it's 3. Temples, on the other hand, give 1 from civic and 1 from resource, along with culture boost and few extra perks, for even less hammers and techs.
I say cut the costs of theater and add +25% culture to it, or make it give +1 happy per 5% culture (2 per 10%).
IMHO culture slider is even less valuable in FfH as with gambling houses you get happy AND money to rush buy and support conquered cities maintenance and military. Culture slider is IMO just a money drain you turn on when your cities are starving from unhappiness and unhappiness is so high that you lose less cash and research if you turn on culture slider and convert newly gained laborers to merchants and scientists than if you just let them rebel.

EDIT: Zechnophobe was faster...

 

[Ecofarm]

Ecofarm, I feel you are really trying to compare apples and oranges here.

But that is not going to stop you from making a comparison I never implied was necessary in the evaluation of the building. Can you bulb the tech for gambling house? No. Does the tech for gambling house give a free great person? No. Does the tech give you an additional slider? No.

This is as if you want to compare the power of two civs based purely on a UU, while ignoring things such as UB and traits.

You can't just claim that the cost is affordable because if you pay an ADDITIONAL cost it is okay.

No, I'm saying the stuff it comes with and the ease of getting those things are part of the equation.

Switching to consumption, say, from Religion, is likely to LOSE you happiness, not gain it.

Only in cities that have more than 1 temple and lack both a market and a theatre.

Putting 20% of your income into culture isn't just something you can do on a lark, and dye isn't always easy to come by. These are all pretty conditional, or costly.

Everything in the game should be. There should be no "guarenteed path to world domination under all conditions" techs or buildings.

You are also including the normal +1 Hapy per 10% as though it were a feature of Theatres, which it is not.

Putting x% of your income into culture isn't just something you can do on a lark.

In reality, a theater built by itself without anything else going on... provides 3 culture. If you have Dye, it gives +1 Happiness.

In reality, a temple built by itself without anything else going on... provides +20% culture and costs 1/2 as much.

This is just not good enough. Compare it to a Gambling house,

I thought you said no apples and oranges, but fine...

which costs 200, and provides 2 or 3 happy faces generally when you build it, and 3 gold! These are very similar structures (Happy per 10%, +3 GNP) but one costs less, and is much more immediately useful. Heck, you even will sometimes get the half price gambling house from the undercouncil, further showing it's superiority.

And what else do you get for the tech you needed to build the gambling house?

You shouldn't count that as 7 happy from theater, as you would get 2 from 20% culture even without theater. So it's more like 5. And most likely you wouldn't run culture slider at all, so it's 3. And not have dye, so its 2. And not run consumption, so it's 1. For 300 hammers. But let's say it's 3.

So, no resource and no civic and no slider and it is only 1? How is it one?

Temples, on the other hand, give 1 from civic and 1 from resource,

Wait a minute! Temples, "on the other hand", give 1 from civic and 1 from resource...

So do theatres? Why are they the "other hand"?

along with culture boost and few extra perks, for even less hammers and techs.

Culture boost? +20% is nothing without culture slider. +3 base is more. Less hammers? True, temples cost 1/2 the hammers. Less tech? Drama is FREE with a great bard (or gives you a great person if you tech it). Religion is free? Spreading it to build the temple is free?

I say cut the costs of theater and add +25% culture to it, or make it give +1 happy per 5% culture (2 per 10%).

I don't think we need to make theatres another guardian of nature. Cutting cost to 200 hammers is fine.

IMHO culture slider is even less valuable in FfH as with gambling houses you get happy AND money to rush buy and support conquered cities maintenance and military. Culture slider is IMO just a money drain you turn on when your cities are starving from unhappiness and unhappiness is so high that you lose less cash and research if you turn on culture slider and convert newly gained laborers to merchants and scientists than if you just let them rebel.

EDIT: Zechnophobe was faster...

I don't bother with gambling houses as often as theatres. Culture slider is invaluable to a domination victory and/or rapid conquest of many cities. If for no other reason than friendly roads on the way to the next city.

 

[Zechnophobe]

But that is not going to stop you from making a comparison I never implied was necessary in the evaluation of the building. Can you bulb the tech for gambling house? No. Does the tech for gambling house give a free great person? No. Does the tech give you an additional slider? No.

We are comparing buildings here, not techs. Drama leads to... nothing, whereas mathematics leads to engineering, one of the strongest techs in the mid game, and one that does in fact, give a great person.

Only in cities that have more than 1 temple and lack both a market and a theatre.

Religion gives +1 Happiness to a city with that religion. It also gives +1 happiness if you have a temple of any religion. These aren't exactly rare occurrances here, especially if you've spread the religion via priests.

In reality, a temple built by itself without anything else going on... provides +20% culture and costs 1/2 as much.

Are you trying to be obtuse here? It also provides whatever bonus' the religion gets from said temple, such as the ability to build priests, boosts to health or economy, or straight up more culture, if that's something you feel you need.

I thought you said no apples and oranges, but fine...

And what else do you get for the tech you needed to build the gambling house?

Gambling houses are very good, and cheaper. You get almost nothing from Drama if you aren't the first to get it. Tell me, how often do you research Drama if you don't bulb it? How often if it doesn't come with a Great Person?

Yet, Mathematics, which lets you adjust tax income, as well as build the second best Happiness provider (Behind public baths) and is half the requirement for the Bazaar of Mammon, is always all of those things. And it will still always be a prerequisite for Engineering.

So, no resource and no civic and no slider and it is only 1? How is it one?

Wait a minute! Temples, "on the other hand", give 1 from civic and 1 from resource...

So do theatres? Why are they the "other hand"?

Because they don't cost 250 production, and you likely ALREADY have them in your cities... because they were cheap enough to build.

Culture boost? +20% is nothing without culture slider. +3 base is more. Less hammers? True, temples cost 1/2 the hammers. Less tech? Drama is FREE with a great bard (or gives you a great person if you tech it). Religion is free? Spreading it to build the temple is free?

If Drama is FREE with a great bard, then heck, Priesthood is FREE with enough beakers. Are you kidding me? I mean, why do you even HAVE a great bard this early? A great scientist at roughly the same time will give your nation probably a 30% boost to overall science. And the specialist you were using to generate it, didn't, y'know, suck.

I don't think we need to make theatres another guardian of nature. Cutting cost to 200 hammers is fine.


I don't bother with gambling houses as often as theatres. Culture slider is invaluable to a domination victory and/or rapid conquest of many cities. If for no other reason than friendly roads on the way to the next city.

This is Madness (Sparta?). Culture invaluable to domination victory? What, because you tried to do it via subversion, instead of conquest? It takes only two or three turns to get 100 culture at the point in the game you are trying to get domination. And even still, you could just, like, conquer one more city. Even if you dog it, and take 10 turns to get that extra little aura of culture.. those are the last 10 turns of the game, who cares if it's 2 turns or 10?

And not building Gambling houses... I can't even imagine what would cause you to shy away from them. I guess if you didn't need the happiness, they end up just being really expensive market places. But if you aren't in that situation, the gambling house happiness bonus can be freaking huge. Even more so, as costs increase during war time, routing science into taxes will ALSO fight the eventual war weariness. With a theatre providing a similar bonus, you'd split your GNP between the two to maintain happiness and good taxation. In fact, there is zero reason (Assuming equivalent spread of Theatres to Gambling houses) to put money into culture, because culture doesn't, by itself, do all that dang much.

 

[MaxAstro]

Actually, +1 happy per 10% culture IS a feature of Theaters, and specifically noted as so. Cities without Theaters do NOT get the boost (either that or cities with theaters get +2 happy per per 10%...).

 

[Zechnophobe]

He listed it twice for theatres. You get it once just in general for having your culture slider moved, and theatres cause you to get the bonus again. You'd still get the normal culture boost to happiness without the theater.

 

[MaxAstro]

I'm gonna have to check this out in game... Will update with results.

EDIT: Confirmed: You always get +1 happy per 10% culture, cities with Theaters give +2 happy per 10% culture.

 

[PacoDeth]

Am I the only one that thinks the Aqueduct takes ridiculously long to build for what little benefit it gives you? Maybe once blight hits it's really useful, but even in a very large city with good productions, you are almost better off waiting on blight to disappear then the 8 or 10 or 15 turns it takes to build one.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Am I the only one that thinks the Aqueduct takes ridiculously long to build for what little benefit it gives you? Maybe once blight hits it's really useful, but even in a very large city with good productions, you are almost better off waiting on blight to disappear then the 8 or 10 or 15 turns it takes to build one.

It does seem a bit costly, but I think it's because you get 'for sure' 2 health out of it, which is on average more than a granary or smoke house. I still build them last though.

 

[Demus]

Am I the only one that thinks the Aqueduct takes ridiculously long to build for what little benefit it gives you? Maybe once blight hits it's really useful, but even in a very large city with good productions, you are almost better off waiting on blight to disappear then the 8 or 10 or 15 turns it takes to build one.

i do, expecially comparing them to the other building you get with the tech, public baths, which is just a bit more expensive for a lot better boost. Eighter make them cheaper, or give building time bonusses through eighter a tech (engineering?) or resource (marble? or else water mana (no need for that precise construction, just use an adept to get the water flowing in the right direction)).