Why cant workers plant forests?

[Bleys]

Remember SMAC, when your entire empire looked like a blanket of forest, with a few Monorails (or whatever they called them) running through them and a few boreholes here and there?

I do understand that it would create a plant-chop cycle that could be exploited, but if you made the plant time prohibitive, players who wished to spend 20+ turns of a worker for a 30 hammer pop could.

I always overchop, and regret it later, heh, thats why I bring it up. I would LOVE to be able to go back and re-plant a few later. I play Vanilla, BTW, so National Park isnt even a consideration in my mind, but even so, once again, a prohibitively long build time COULD discourage abuse, and really force players to choose where they want waste that kind of worker time.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

This had been brought up before. Basically, it would be very easy to exploit. Plant, chop, plant, chop, free production! I'd like to see this implemented somehow, too, but it would need some way to balance it.

 

[Bleys]

Well, lets say we made the "plant forest" 40 turns (on Epic). How exploitable is 45 turns to plant and chop a forest for 30-40 hammers? Late in the game when your workers are less stressed for things to do, maybe, but by then, 30 hammers isnt that big a chunk.

I do realize there would have to be adjustments to other things, but I miss my "Carpet of Forests" SMAC empires! I actually loaded up an old game, just to check it out, LOL, its actually amusing to look at my land compared to Yangs, who is a terrain PIG!

 

[Synobun]

Just keep a bunch of tiles empty in your empire which has a couple forest tiles. And VOILA, you have a forest growing patch. (Sure, not that fast, but better than nothing)

 

[Way_Traveler]

This had been brought up before. Basically, it would be very easy to exploit. Plant, chop, plant, chop, free production! I'd like to see this implemented somehow, too, but it would need some way to balance it.

What if the ability was married to the environmentalism civic? It makes sense, and any 'exploit' would require giving up the candy-like power of state property, and would require paying extra for corporations. If it was still too much, an unhappiness penalty could be added for chopping down a recently planted forest (less than 50 turns, say). I've always wondered if there was a way to make environmentalism attractive, and this may be it...

 

[mattpilot]

When Civ4 was first released, someone made a mod where you could build 'tree farms/schools' - they worked like cottages. You put a worker on them for X turns and it turns into the next level, which would be the forest. Worked quite nicely. No way of speeding up the growing process by putting more workers on the tile, since it was controlled through the city menu. The worker who worked that tile wouldn't get any bonus' other than the standard tile production, but after 30-40 turns u had a forest that could be improved otherwise.

 

[mattpilot]

But then there is absolutely NO reason to save forests in the early game. All your doing is removing a strategic choice from the player - how is that fun?

I guess your fun does not equal my fun.

 

[Bleys]

Wow, no reason to save forests in early game? I bet you never had a 5 Floodplain start, eh? Health becomes a big issue on higher levels. Immortal level players rarely settle without a coast/fresh water.

One of the bigger . . . not "problems" . . . dunno what word to use, but one of the bigger "situations" I see on this board is advice that works on one level, but is HORRIBLE as you go up in difficulty. Its almost as though each difficulty level and map choice has its own very own "mini-game, with mini-strats" built right in! (thats why "problem" isnt the correct word, heh)

 

[6K Man]

I can see allowing replanting of forests following the discovery of Biology or maybe Ecology. Certainly not before then.

 

[lutzj]

I've always wondered if there was a way to make environmentalism attractive, and this may be it...

It doesn't need to be attractive. The AI invariably votes for it in the UN, and health is one of the worst late-game issues.

Back on subject, what if the worker was consumed? That would completely eliminate its usefulness for production purposes.

 

[Illusion13]

Well, in this game forests give like 30 shields, which is ALOT...

 

[dar]

Why not use the same mechanisms that cottages use? The worker plants a 'Forest Farm' that gives no benefits. That forest farm must be worked by a city for 30 turns and then turns into a normal forest.

 

[DragonHawk]

Why not use the same mechanisms that cottages use? The worker plants a 'Forest Farm' that gives no benefits. That forest farm must be worked by a city for 30 turns and then turns into a normal forest.

This is a good idea. Plus forest farm should behave like a forest tile with -1 So forest farm on grassland would yield 2 and on plain would yield 11 (i.e. no river bonus if it happens to be by a river)

In addition, Environmentalism would double the speed of forest farm growth

The forest farm would be available after Biology

 

[6K Man]

This is a good idea. Plus forest farm should behave like a forest tile with -1 So forest farm on grassland would yield 2 and on plain would yield 11 (i.e. no river bonus if it happens to be by a river)

In addition, Environmentalism would double the speed of forest farm growth

The forest farm would be available after Biology

I'd be on board with that. Planting and rechopping becomes less of an issue at that point in the game (Biology), so I can't see how this could become an exploit.

Presumably the +.05 health would only come when the forest farm had turned into a forest?

 

[Bleys]

I still would like it earlier than Biology.

The idea of consuming the worker intrigues me. If the build time was long AND the worker was consumed, it would be pretty much unexploitable. However, it would give you another mid-game option for those "extra" workers you always seem to have.

 

[BareJag]

This is a good idea. Plus forest farm should behave like a forest tile with -1 So forest farm on grassland would yield 2 and on plain would yield 11 (i.e. no river bonus if it happens to be by a river)

In addition, Environmentalism would double the speed of forest farm growth

The forest farm would be available after Biology

Why no bonus near rivers?
In forestry rivers are quite valuable. Floating timber until the 1970-s. Transporting timber by flatboats nowadays save much money. Another important thing is that forest near rivers most often are most fertile, and therefore give more valuable species of trees, and in bigger quantities.

 

[krille]

It doesn't need to be attractive. The AI invariably votes for it in the UN, and health is one of the worst late-game issues.

Back on subject, what if the worker was consumed? That would completely eliminate its usefulness for production purposes.

That's a great idea. Completely unexploitable!

(I don't see the "refunding" of workers as an exploit for various reasons.)

edit: I wonder if <bKill>0</bKill> is used to consume the worker? Gonna try. (In CIV4BuildInfos.xml of course.)

 

[ICNP]

Sevomod has the ability to plant forests. So if you want it go and try it out.

Actually I'm only 80% sure because I never really planted a forest. And yeah it takes an extremely long time to grow the forest and it even costs gold if Im remembering corectly

 

[Blue Ether]

I think this is an interesting idea but I don't see why people are so concerned about it being "exploitable." It's not as if 4 turns of working result in a ready-to-go forest. That was AC terraforming fantasy. Planted forests in Civ would naturally have to behave like cottages, with the key difference that forests would only grow when they AREN'T being worked (the idea being that the working of the forest is actually counteracting any long-term growth).

I agree that biology is a good pre-req for planting. Chopping benefits would work something like plundering an enemy cottage. The more turns the forest has been growing, the more hammers you get from the chop. Furthermore, you wouldn't get any hammers for chopping the forest in it's early stages- say the first 20-40 turns. Realistically the amount of time it takes the forest to grow would be dependent on the base tile it was planted on - forests grow faster when there's moisture and good soil.

I don't see how there's anything much to exploit there. You have the worker spend 4 turns planting, then have to wait 20-40 turns until you have something that's choppable, and longer if you want the full normal forest chopping bonus. Meanwhile you're getting pretty much no benefit from the tile because it's hammer value for being worked would also be growing and would probably be equal to the base hammer value for the tile in the early stages (and no sawmill bonus).

At some point there could even be the addition of a "harvest" function for the worker so the forest could be partially chopped, resulting in a smaller number of hammers but leaving the forest in a state where it can return to a harvestable state quicker (but it wouldn't give as many hammers from being worked). The pre-req for harvesting would realistically have to be ecology but that would tend to make it too irrelevent so perhaps biology would work.

At that point, I would describe it as "realistic" because in the real world if a city has more land than it needs, managed forestry is frequently something that is practiced on the periphery. If the city has the land to spare, why shouldn't it be able to benefit some extra hammers every now and then?

I wonder on a larger level why the chopping bonus isn't eliminated from the late game. And further, isn't the working of the sawmill really an abstract representation of forest harvesting? It's always seemed to me that the discovery of replacable parts should also eliminate the chopping bonus.

 

[TheLastOne36]

What if the ability was married to the environmentalism civic? It makes sense, and any 'exploit' would require giving up the candy-like power of state property, and would require paying extra for corporations. If it was still too much, an unhappiness penalty could be added for chopping down a recently planted forest (less than 50 turns, say). I've always wondered if there was a way to make environmentalism attractive, and this may be it...

100% agreed. I'd like to see this in a mod.