I don't see why not. China could alwasys import the resources, I mean if there were no major wars between China and the rest of the world. US and southeast Asian countries are more than happy to supply food. The only problem may be oil. China needs to secure oil supply in the 10-20 years.
Why did China fail?
- Thread starter marshal zhukov
- Start date
I don't see why not. China could alwasys import the resources, I mean if there were no major wars between China and the rest of the world. US and southeast Asian countries are more than happy to supply food. The only problem may be oil. China needs to secure oil supply in the 10-20 years.
The Mongol invasion was a major setback for China. Commerce and industry were gradually developed in Song Dynasty, though in slow pace. But Song was too weak militarily, and Mongols were just too strong.
Ming, the dynasty after the Mongols, learned wrong lessons from Song's failure. Zhu Yuanzhuang, the first emperor of Ming, completely reversed Song's free and competitive policies. Without commercialism, the exploring of the rest of world is meaningless, too costly and without few reward. So after the third emperor ordered to burn all the warships, and forbid all the voyages, China was doomed to lag behind Europe.
redtom
Proudhonist
Do you believe then that China will go to war over oil? Where would it go to war against? ie, who is the closest country with large oil reserves?
feistymongol
Warlord
- Joined
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- 115
Most likely not, China has developed middle east ties and they still have a fairly constant trade with Russia. That leaves them with Russia AND the middle east as sources of oil trade.
Alcibiaties of Athenae
Imperator
Sorry, but the circumnavigation part was just a theory, and no such wrecks were found in the Carribean, the professor that put forth this theory had no concrete evidence at all, he merely postulated it by comparing pottery found, in his mind, that may have resembled Chinese pottery from that period.
In fact, several naval architects studied carefully Chinese naval designs to see if they could survive deep water stress, and found that they would not have survived a trip around either the cape of good hope or cape horn.
The part about visiting California is also unproven, no evidence has been put forth, so this too is only speculation, though it is certianly possible.
So your claim of circumnavigation is completly unproven, despite the press coverage of several months ago.
By secure, I mean to guarantee a stable supply of oil. You don't need to occupy the lands to secure oil supply. The future demand for oil would be so big that Russia and central asian oil couldn't satisfy the demand. China has to go for middle east oils. Then China has to guarantee the safety of the oil tank route from middle east to China coast. This is a big part of reason why China has to develop navy forces. (Of course Taiwan is a big reason too.)
Rodgers
Following YOUR child home
I was in China in 1996 and saw all the places you listed - maybe it's better by now....
The Chinese 'failed' because culturally, they just don't want to dominate the rest of the world militarily and territorially. China is a world unto itself, self-sufficient, self-contained and until 1800, still compared favourably with the West. It was the Industrial Revolution that did the Chinese in, along with a host of other reasons. You need to write a book to cover all the different aspects.
In any case, it's only a period of 200 yrs, a very short interegnum in Chinese history. At present, China is heading towards its greatest phase (with many hiccups), in which it would affect the world more than it ever did in its long history.
In any case, it's only a period of 200 yrs, a very short interegnum in Chinese history. At present, China is heading towards its greatest phase (with many hiccups), in which it would affect the world more than it ever did in its long history.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Indeed. Did China truly fail, or is it just going through a minor setback?
Rome failed. Alexander's empire failed. In fact, nearly all the ancients European empires died out at some point or another. Even the more recent ones have drawn back pretty much to their pre-imperial borders by now, losing nearly all power they had.
Compare that to China, which has managed to struggle on and live for over two milleniums (it's no longer an empire, but it's still the same old china) as its own country - sometime forced to lick the boot of other nations to survive, yes, but still...
No, I simply don't see a way to judge China as a failure. Especially now that they are on the rise again.
And culturaly, if one take in notion how influenced by china many of the Asians "Dragons" and "Tigers" were, one may note that Chinesse influence on the "Eastern" world has nothign to envy to greek influence over the dawn of the western world.
Rome failed. Alexander's empire failed. In fact, nearly all the ancients European empires died out at some point or another. Even the more recent ones have drawn back pretty much to their pre-imperial borders by now, losing nearly all power they had.
Compare that to China, which has managed to struggle on and live for over two milleniums (it's no longer an empire, but it's still the same old china) as its own country - sometime forced to lick the boot of other nations to survive, yes, but still...
No, I simply don't see a way to judge China as a failure. Especially now that they are on the rise again.
And culturaly, if one take in notion how influenced by china many of the Asians "Dragons" and "Tigers" were, one may note that Chinesse influence on the "Eastern" world has nothign to envy to greek influence over the dawn of the western world.
I would concur with Fayadi, It was grossly infirior, bureaucratic, and corrupt government which has inhibited Chinese advancement.
Archbob
Ancient CFC Guardian
I'm sure the Chinese people(myself included) would love to be in American's position(I'm a chinese USA citizen) as the most powerful country in the world and the Chinese government(who I'm not that fond of) would love to dominate the world, however, that just isn't going to happen.
The thing is, its not just oil that China will be lacking. The northern part of China is desparately short on water and alot of the countryside is still extremely poor and impoverished. Only 1/3 of the chinese land is usable and it has to support 1.5 billion people(my estiment of chinese population because the 1.2 billion I think is inaccurate). The land problems, the pollution, and the draining of internal resources will be a problem. Sure china can import, but using this tactic, it can be a major trading power, but never as dominant as the USA is today.
The thing is, its not just oil that China will be lacking. The northern part of China is desparately short on water and alot of the countryside is still extremely poor and impoverished. Only 1/3 of the chinese land is usable and it has to support 1.5 billion people(my estiment of chinese population because the 1.2 billion I think is inaccurate). The land problems, the pollution, and the draining of internal resources will be a problem. Sure china can import, but using this tactic, it can be a major trading power, but never as dominant as the USA is today.
pi8ch
Union's Guard
I wouldn't say that China failed....
They influenced all east-asian cultures, and nearly all east-asian cultures were servants of the Chines Empire.
They influenced all east-asian cultures, and nearly all east-asian cultures were servants of the Chines Empire.
I would hardly term them servants. In fact, one of these cultures ruled over China as its last imperial house. I'm speaking of course, of the Manchus.
Michael York
On Sabatical from Civ
China and technology..... never has the nation possessed any credible knowledge of engineering. (basic structural designs yes, everything else, no) where are all of their advances???? they did well on parlor tricks, but failed to develop the science to use them. because of the limitations of traditional chinese culture, it will be very difficult for china to ever be more than a second rate power. (and that is very unfortunate considering their population and awesome food. much better than my ancestoral lamb and cumrian sausage)
Parlor tricks? limitations of Chinese culture? Second rate power?
I'll have you know that the late Christopher Needham of Cambridge (or maybe Oxford) wrote an entire series of encyclopedia on ancient Chinese science and technology. You can refer to it for more detailed info. And if you can read Chinese, better still, you can look at all the firsthand material in China itself; those that weren't destroyed thru all the war yrs and Cultural Revolution upheavals at any rate.
More examples - the world's earliest suspension bridge is in China, specifically in Sichuan. And constructed around 2000 yrs ago I think. That's hardly possible w/o 'credible knowledge of engineering'.
And the construction of the Ming Great Wall, running thru mountains and deserts. And the construction of the Grand Canal with all its water locks and so on fr Beijing to the Yangzi. And the irrigation canals in Sichuan and the Wei valley.
feistymongol
Warlord
- Joined
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- 115
Ahh more bigoted ramblings by a really cool guy.
Read Michael York's comments in Off topic for more of the same nonsense when he tries to turn the "War with China" thread into a racial/ethoncentrist debate.
Any real historical scholar can tell you otherwise when it comes to China and the great civilization they built.
Btw, here's a quote directly from the CIA worldfactbook introduction about China:
For centuries China has stood as a leading civilization, outpacing the rest of the world in the arts and sciences. But in the first half of the 20th century, China was beset by major famines, civil unrest, military defeats, and foreign occupation. After World War II, the Communists under MAO Zedong established a dictatorship that, while ensuring China's sovereignty, imposed strict controls over everyday life and cost the lives of tens of millions of people. After 1978, his successor DENG Xiaoping gradually introduced market-oriented reforms and decentralized economic decision making. Output quadrupled in the next 20 years and China now has the world's second largest GDP. Political controls remain tight even while economic controls continue to weaken.
pi8ch
Union's Guard
I meant it this way:
Look at the Manchu: What did they do? They forbid Chineese to enter Mandchuria and to marry Mandchu...
They ruling Manchu's themselves got totaly asimilated into Chineese culture! They did never try to alter the Chineese culture, because they knew it's better to use this culture...
You can say the Mandchu did stay as rulers only because they lived and behaved like the Chineese. In fact the Chineese made the Mandchu Chineese ...
And until (and even during) the 19th centruy when the downfall of China started, all states around have to pay the Chineese and had been their servants.
(Corea, all the Indochina and states south of China ....)
Only Japan could stay outside of the Chineese "ruling power" (by luck - Taifun
), but their whole culuture is based upon the Chineese, even if they made their own culture out of it...The Chineese culture was so strong that it survived everything during it's history..
Ah, I see but to use the term 'servant' smacks of jingoism and cultural extremism. Let's say China exerts a strong cultural influence on the East Asian region and leave it at that.
You're right on the assimiliation of the Manchus. To rule China, you need to subscribe to Chinese norms. Which the Mongols failed to do, hence they ruled for less than a century.
Just a note - the Chinese only exerted a strong influence on Annam or Vietnam, southwards. The other states were all influenced by India - Siam, Burma, Khmer empire etc.
Let's say China exerts a strong cultural influence on the East Asian region and leave it at that. You're right on the assimiliation of the Manchus. To rule China, you need to subscribe to Chinese norms. Which the Mongols failed to do, hence they ruled for less than a century.
Just a note - the Chinese only exerted a strong influence on Annam or Vietnam, southwards. The other states were all influenced by India - Siam, Burma, Khmer empire etc.
pi8ch
Union's Guard
Noted, and signed as OK
Would have been my next statement
Yeah... that's true, but at least in Siam there was some Chineese influence...
