Why didn't everyone in the ancient world use mass archery armies?

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As long as they are protected by some melee troops to counter cavalry charges, what's the downside?

Wouldn't such an army be able to defeat a Greek Phalanx or a Roman legion, for instance?
 
Well if the enemy army is nothing but cavalry, how many melee troops are you going to need to protect your missile troops?

As for phalangite armies, no, I seriously doubt that missile troops alone, even in fantastic quaintity, could perform effectively against them.

Also, remember such formations as the testudo, or "tortoise," that are virtually impenitrable to archery.

To make the final point, armies by the eighteenth century were, by and large, missile troops, in a manner of speaking; certainly in comparison to "heavy" infantry of earlier centuries.
 
Professional armies were pretty rare in ancient times, the mass of your force was usually peasants given a pointy stick or sharped hunk of metal they called a sword. Arrows cost money, rain could damage a strung bow, and it took a fair amount of training to use it effectively. If you saw 300, one of the few historical truths was how they survived massed arrow fire.
 
Watching a band of archers try to police a captured city would be amusing.
 
it would cost a lot of money to have enough arrows to be effectively used.
 
Arrows are considerably less effective than popular culture would have you think, plus training could take years. You could spend months paying one of your men at arms to train, only to have him beaten by 3 peasents with an hours worth of practice with pointy sticks.
 
Do arrows cost that much more than melee weapons? Also weren't arrows recollected and reused AFAIK?

Archers not being good at capturing and policing cities indeed makes sense.
As does archery requiring more training and experience.

According to Wiki though, the turtle formation wasn't all that useful, except for military parades and Hollywood.

Anyway, I discovered a line in Wikipedia which could explain my question: "The Persian army depended on archery, mobility, and cavalry, and while these tactics were effective on the vast plains of the east, in confined areas they could be defeated easily." Thus explaining Marathon for instance.

I guess a 25% hill (uneven terrain) defense bonus for archers doesn't make sense then?

Btw, were there any advances in infantry bow production or tactics between the invention of the recurve bow (2000 BC) and the longbow? (useful to know for civ ancient era mods)
 
Certainly the crossbow and its later improved variants lead to huge changes in late medieval warfare, and would be something to include.
 
Do arrows cost that much more than melee weapons? Also weren't arrows recollected and reused AFAIK?

Archers not being good at capturing and policing cities indeed makes sense.
As does archery requiring more training and experience.

According to Wiki though, the turtle formation wasn't all that useful, except for military parades and Hollywood.

Anyway, I discovered a line in Wikipedia which could explain my question: "The Persian army depended on archery, mobility, and cavalry, and while these tactics were effective on the vast plains of the east, in confined areas they could be defeated easily." Thus explaining Marathon for instance.

I guess a 25% hill (uneven terrain) defense bonus for archers doesn't make sense then?

Btw, were there any advances in infantry bow production or tactics between the invention of the recurve bow (2000 BC) and the longbow? (useful to know for civ ancient era mods)



wiki said:
It is clear that many ancient peoples used the sling in combat and that organised armies included specialist slingers as well as equipping regular soldiers with slings as a back up weapon. As a weapon, the sling had several clear advantages. In general, a sling bullet lobbed in a high trajectory can achieve ranges approaching 600m[6] — significantly farther than what could be achieved by bows in any period, including the famed longbow. Arrows were typically loosed along relatively flat trajectories that seldom managed to send them beyond 100 meters. The current Guinness World Record distance of an object thrown with a sling stands at 477.0 m, set by David Engvall in 1992 using a metal dart. Larry Bray held the previous world record (1982), in which a 52 g stone was thrown 437.1 m. Modern authorities vary widely in their estimates of the effective range of ancient weapons and of course bows and arrows could also have been used to produce a long-range arcing trajectory, but ancient writers repeatedly stress the sling's advantage of range. The sling was light to carry and cheap to produce; ammunition in the form of stones was readily available and often to be found near the site of battle.


And of course the Javelin has much greater weight behind it and is thus much more likly to penetrate the armour of the opponant. Arrows on the other hand, less weight (compared to stones and javelins) etc.

The real problem apart from the training costs behind creating a sufficiently trained archer 'unit' is that the rate of fire from any projectile unit and the rate of 'kills' will insufficient to rout any attackers (there are some notable exceptions, usually when the attacker lacks any skirmisher support i.e battle where the spartans got killed by pelasts)
 
Certainly the crossbow and its later improved variants lead to huge changes in late medieval warfare, and would be something to include.
QFT, you didn't need as much training, and much less practice to be able to effectively use the crossbow.
 
Certainly the crossbow and its later improved variants lead to huge changes in late medieval warfare, and would be something to include.

Indeed. As missile weapons progressed, they became much easier to weild; this continues to the present day, where pretty much anyone can pick up a gun and, with an hours' instruction and a little practice, more or less fire it in the right direction and maybe hit something. I'm sure with considerable instruction, I could still not operate a bow effectively; hell I'm lucky to get the arrow in the air, much less actually hit something, especially at range.
 
I agree with cheezy, it takes much less practice to use a gun, so it's much cheaper to use in terms of time saved...
 
The Chinese frequently used massed crossbows unit in battle thrughout most of its dynasty. They were quite powerful things as well, at 200-250lb draw weight, very powerful weapon for its time.
 
There was also a limit to how many arrows an army could carry and archers used them up pretty quick. If the enemy had adequate cover and sheilds then they could simply wait for the archers to run out of arrows and then your (assuming it was all archers and a small vanguard of melee troops) army would be in lots of trouble.
 
Certainly the crossbow and its later improved variants lead to huge changes in late medieval warfare, and would be something to include.

Yeah, but unfortunately that's no longer ancient (western) era.

The real problem apart from the training costs behind creating a sufficiently trained archer 'unit' is that the rate of fire from any projectile unit and the rate of 'kills' will insufficient to rout any attackers

Is that an opinion or do you have some sources for that? Basically opponents don't need to be killed right away to remove them from battle, and apparently an archer could fire ten arrow per minute.

There was also a limit to how many arrows an army could carry and archers used them up pretty quick. If the enemy had adequate cover and sheilds then they could simply wait for the archers to run out of arrows and then your (assuming it was all archers and a small vanguard of melee troops) army would be in lots of trouble.

I'm also wondering if this is your opinion, or you base it on some sources you read earlier. (I'm trying to distinguish between useful information and not so)
Considering an army could fire (ten) thousands of arrow, even with shields, wouldn't even a couple arrows get through, and that be sufficient to damage the opponent. In any case, it could render the shield useless for further combat. For instance apparently the purpose of light troops such as javelineers in Greek combat was not to actually kill a hoplite, but for instance force him to discard his shield because it was useless with a small spear smashed in it.

Also if light troops such as archers or javelineers run out of ammo, they can simply retreat. Heavier armoured troops can't keep up. This is how light infantry can defeat heavy infantry: whenever the heavies get close, the lights just run away and restart the attack from a distance.

For the record, I'm basing my hypothesis that mass archery coupled with some pikes or so to protect against charges is pretty good on the following article I found somewhere on the internet (don't know a link anymore):

Spoiler :
I just finished Archer Jones' The Art of War in the Western World, which is a dandy book (Archer Jones is one of my favorite military historians, and I recommend his books to anyone with an interest in the subject. He is always clear and incisive, and makes complex situations highly understandable without needing to simplify).
In his latest book, he points out that, starting with the Macedonians, ancient warfare consisted of four combat arms: Light Infantry (missile-armed), Heavy Infantry, Light Cavalry (missile-armed), and Heavy Cavalry. These have a very specific interrelationship, which has been demonstrated in numerous battles throughout history (up till the invention of the pistol).

"Offensively Superior" means that the combat arm is able to defeat its rival in an attack -- though the "attack" may not look much like one. The classic example is Light Cav vs. Heavy Cav. The Light Cav constantly retreats during an action, so it can't be caught, but it is offensively superior because it can force an action upon the Heavy Cav, who can't get away from the faster, more loosely-organized horse archers.

"Defensively Superior" means that the combat arm's rival is not able to successfully overcome its rival in an assault.

Light Infantry is offensively superior to Heavy Infantry.
Light Cavalry is offensively superior to Heavy Cavalry
Heavy Cavalry is offensively superior to Light Infantry
Light Infantry is defensively superior to Light Cavalry
Heavy Infantry is defensively superior to Heavy Cavalry
When fortifications are involved, of course, these relationships change. Cavalry becomes useless, and the offensive superiority of light infantry is canceled out.
Also, if heavy cavalry can get to the flank of heavy infantry, they can triumph. This was one of Alexander's techniques -- by pinning down the enemy hoplites with his own, and thus keeping them from maneuvering, he could take his Companions and charge the enemy mass from the side or rear.

Note that at Hastings (for instance), the Norman knights were unable to penetrate the Saxon infantry line until they'd broken it up with repeated small charges and sustained archery, thus slowly wearing down the Saxons.


NOTE: light infantry and light cavalry normally take much longer to reach a decision when offensively superior than do the heavies. This is because light troops have to run away when the heavies charge (usually they can do this, because they're faster), then run back when the heavies try to flee. This continual ebb and flow takes quite a while, but the decision is no less certain than when heavy cavalry smash into a batch of slingers -- just slower.

There are exceptions to this general rule, but not nearly as many as you might think. Some well-known sample exceptions are below:

"At Marathon, Athenian heavy inf defeated Persian light inf." The Athenians were able to close with the Persians, whose back was up against the sea. Under normal circumstances, the Persians should have been able to flee while keeping up harassing fire upon the Athenians. There were many cases in which peltasts were able to destroy unsupported hoplites. Obviously, if lights (cavalry or infantry) can be trapped so as to prevent retreat, the heavies have it all over them. But this is the exception.

"At Crecy, English light infantry (longbowmen) defeated heavy cavalry." In fact, the French did not attack the longbowmen, but instead charged the main English line, basically heavy infantry. The infantry was well able to resist the charge, especially after the archers had sowed confusion. On those occasions when cavalry charged longbowmen, the longbowmen ran away, were massacred, sought shelter among accompanying heavy infantry, or were saved by a countercharge from friendly cavalry.

"The Romans managed to rule an entire empire, relying entirely on their excellent heavy infantry". The Roman infantry was excellent. But the Romans also had significant numbers of auxiliaries serving as light infantry. In addition, they invariably had locally-recruited cavalry forces, normally the equivalent of heavy cavalry. They did generally lack light cavalry, and this showed in their Parthian campaigns.

NOTE: "heavy" cavalry does not necessarily mean heavy armor. It just means they're trained to fight in large masses in a melee rather than in the Parthian style. For example, during the Crusades, the Crusaders learned to hold off Saracen horse archers by using crossbowmen (using light infantry to defeat light cavalry) for their heavy infantry and cavalry to shield behind. The Saracen light cavalry was trained to fight both with bow and sword, and thus could "switch" over to a heavy-style melee combat. On occasions that the Crusaders crossbowmen did not have support from nearby heavy infantry or cavalry, the Saracen cavalry was able to charge and, despite their light arms and armor, disperse and kill the crossbowmen. In effect, they could act as light or heavy cavalry. Of course, if they had to face genuine Crusader knights, the Saracens couldn't hold up in melee with these horsemen. Instead, they evolved their own form of genuine heavy cavalry, which was still not as good as the Crusaders, but a heck of lot better than nothing.
 
While not quite what the OP had in mind, the Mongol army was almost all made up of horse archers. Even the Mongol heavy cavalry carried bows.
 
Another point not yet mentioned is that some regions did not have enough trees (or the right kind) to produce the large numbers of arrows that would be necessary for such an army. Some of those cultures developed highly developed skills with slings, but usually not in the numbers implied by the original post.
 
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