Why do people like Aesthetics?

[Crustierpie]

I tried out asthentics and and I have to say I think it is the worst tree.

Unlocking: 25% increase GWAM its like a specific garden/pisa good but nothing to write home about.

Fine Arts: Not terribly good until idealogy is unlocked. Even than at the end of my Poland/Immortal game I had 80 happiness or 40 culture per turn compared to my empires 800...

Cultural centers: Usually have monuments/ampitheatres up and running by the time you can get this. It's nice for opera houses but I tend to buy museums/towers due to archeology rush and maxing out culture sooner. Also increases speed in building buildings in puppets which is not always a good thing. Overall pretty meh.

Flourishing of the arts: 33% culture in cities with world wonders (great!) and a golden age. Best of the bunch.

Free great artist: Pretty good

10% Policy reductions: effectively nothing as it won't work out to a free policy

And Finally the closer. It's good no doubt, but you've just sacrificed a ton of science (by not picking rationalism) to get it. Good luck getting the wonders you want to double your theme bonus and even if you do get them you still have to get the the right great works which can be a pain/impossible for the three of the same era same civilization ones.

Seems to me that beelining Pisa for free great artist/25% GWAM production is just as good as 1/2 this tree without spending 6 polcies which could be used for science (or gold/happiness) to unlock hotels/airports/internet earlier.

 

[MarshalN]

Agreed - tried it, but don't find it awesome. Part of the problem is that most of it is geared towards increasing culture, which is nice, but culture in and of itself is not that useful, especially if you're gunning for CV which means you already produce plenty of it for SP purposes (and you just spent the extra policies you gained on aesthetics)

 

[The QC]

I've picked it up in my first game and I was underwhelmed myself. I started picking up Rationalism policies very late in the game, after I couldn't find any more useful ideology tenets to add, and I was shocked by how much my science output increased. It made my think I should have picked it up early, instead of Aesthetics.

To be fair, I haven't made an analysis of how much Aesthetics helped my cultural output. The game felt strange in that the pace of policy adoption was much faster later than earlier. I hadn't expected to run out of ideology tenets, really, but not only I did, I also took the entirety of Rationalism and almost the entirety of Patronage afterwards. Aesthetics had a contribution to that, but I can't tell how much and I don't know if it was worth depriving myself of so much science.

 

[Mesix]

Aesthetics is available in the Classical Era and Rationalism is not available until the Renaissance Era. If you finish your first policy tree (generally either Tradition or Liberty) in the Classical Era, Aesthetics can provide a nice bonus to and the generation of artistic great people. If you are making a priority, it isn't difficult to finish 2 policy trees by the early Renaissance at which point you can go into Rationalism if you desire.

Policies come much quicker after getting Aesthetics. You are getting +33% in your core cities (assuming you have built at least 1 wonder in each core city) and policies cost 10% less. Those two policies have synergy and shouldn't be viewed alone as the OP did. You will get 2-3 free policies out of Aesthetics if played right, and your future policies will come much quicker. On a cultural victory game I can fill up 4 policy trees by the time ideologies come around provided I take Aesthetics second. If I forgo Aesthetics then I generally get 3 policy trees in a heavy game and only 2 policy trees when going a different route (e.g. a Science Victory).

Comparing Aesthetics to Rationalism isn't a good comparison. Compare aesthetics to what is available in the Classical Era. Is it better to open Tradition and Liberty? Would you prefer to go Piety and get a Reformation Belief and a lot of ? Perhaps you want to open Honor before the Renaissance Era?

Another option might be to stall your and concentrate on early on and reach the renaissance Era faster making Rationalism your second policy tree. For me personally, this worked better in G&K. Since BNW, I find that the early game is slower and the policies come a bit quicker. It all comes down to play style though.

 

[Mesix]

Another aspect of Aesthetics is the defensive nature of in BNW. I have seen several threads where people complain about unhappiness due to ideologies in the late game. If you are generating enough you will not have this problem. If you are also generating significant :c5tourism: then you will cause unhappiness for your opponents and perhaps even revolt. Aesthetics is one way to control the late game ideology/tourism dynamic.

 

[MarshalN]

But the free policies thanks to aesthetics have a cost - you just spent four policies for those 2-3 free policies thanks to the +33% culture and 10% lower cost. So it's actually a bit of a wash.

Those two policies made more sense when you needed 5 full trees for the win, but since that is not a requirement now, it actually serves almost no purpose - you could've just gone to rationalism, or patronage. The opportunity cost of getting aesthetics is simply too high, and the resulting bonuses don't really do anything. Patronage I think is actually a far better choice given that they are open at the same time.

 

[wigwam]

It might be a wash in terms of policies, but you also pile up a bunch of defensive culture, and finishing Aesthetics provides a significant boost to tourism. It's also one of only two ways to buy GWAM with faith.

 

[kaspergm]

But the free policies thanks to aesthetics have a cost - you just spent four policies for those 2-3 free policies thanks to the +33% culture and 10% lower cost. So it's actually a bit of a wash.

Those two policies made more sense when you needed 5 full trees for the win, but since that is not a requirement now, it actually serves almost no purpose - you could've just gone to rationalism, or patronage. The opportunity cost of getting aesthetics is simply too high, and the resulting bonuses don't really do anything. Patronage I think is actually a far better choice given that they are open at the same time.

Yes, this is arguably a valid point. The fact that you do get the finisher benefits - including the ability to buy GWAM with faith - to some extent makes up for this, but I do agree that at least the policy that reduces cost of future policies with 10 % could need something else on top of it, so it doesn't just turn out to be a "pay a policy to get a policy".

 

[de_baser]

Let is also be mentioned that this tree grants a golden age and a free artist - that can be used for another golden age. Lest we forget the significant output a GA adds empire-wide, especially culture-wise.

 

[ggmoyang]

Well, being able to buy GMusician is great thing for culture victory.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

And something about the 25% increase.... you seem to think this is a weak bonus but remember this STACKS on top of the Garden AND Pisa AND any National Epic AND any other Great People Rate increasnig bonuses. So yeah.... food for thought

Not to mention the Double Themeing bonus in Capital is very powerful (especially if you are France, managed to get the Lourve... AND got it to themeing bonus)

 

[Mesix]

Getting three of the same era/civilization for the theme bonus isn't too tough when you are generating Great Artists very quickly and can also buy them with .

 

[Worlds_Crossing]

But the free policies thanks to aesthetics have a cost - you just spent four policies for those 2-3 free policies thanks to the +33% culture and 10% lower cost. So it's actually a bit of a wash.

Those two policies made more sense when you needed 5 full trees for the win, but since that is not a requirement now, it actually serves almost no purpose - you could've just gone to rationalism, or patronage. The opportunity cost of getting aesthetics is simply too high, and the resulting bonuses don't really do anything. Patronage I think is actually a far better choice given that they are open at the same time.

GW's may garner you extra SP's with their Political Treatises, though generally you'd want an extra Great Work instead. I imagine faith buying a few GW's during the World's Fair period would probably get you a couple of extra SP's. Useful for if you timed the Fair and the Renaissance at just the right time, and need to finish Rationalism now.

 

[Dark_Jedi06]

Not to mention the Double Themeing bonus in Capital is very powerful (especially if you are France, managed to get the Lourve... AND got it to themeing bonus)

As far as I can tell, the double theming bonus from the finisher applies to all museums and Wonders in every city, not just the capital.

 

[de_baser]

As far as I can tell, the double theming bonus from the finisher applies to all museums and Wonders in every city, not just the capital.

Theming the Louvre for +16 is also an achievement!

 

[DuseCutter]

As far as I can tell, the double theming bonus from the finisher applies to all museums and Wonders in every city, not just the capital.

Right, the one for Aesthetics. He's referring the the UA of France.

 

[RealHuhn]

I think it's balanced quite well for tall AND wide empires.

Wide empires benefit immensely from lower hammer costs, tall empires are more likely to get the +33% culture in each city. +25% bonus to GWAM spawns stacks with other modifiers, so the opener is a decent choice for almost every strategy.
The finisher is almost a requirement for cultural victories. Additional concert tours in late game are a must-have on higher difficulty levels.

And last but not least, more culture for defense, free stuff (golden age, artist) and double theming bonus.

That's a long list and I think it competes quite well with other trees around that era.

 

[Crustierpie]

Aesthetics is available in the Classical Era and Rationalism is not available until the Renaissance Era. If you finish your first policy tree (generally either Tradition or Liberty) in the Classical Era, Aesthetics can provide a nice bonus to and the generation of artistic great people. If you are making a priority, it isn't difficult to finish 2 policy trees by the early Renaissance at which point you can go into Rationalism if you desire.

Policies come much quicker after getting Aesthetics. You are getting +33% in your core cities (assuming you have built at least 1 wonder in each core city) and policies cost 10% less. Those two policies have synergy and shouldn't be viewed alone as the OP did. You will get 2-3 free policies out of Aesthetics if played right, and your future policies will come much quicker. On a cultural victory game I can fill up 4 policy trees by the time ideologies come around provided I take Aesthetics second. If I forgo Aesthetics then I generally get 3 policy trees in a heavy game and only 2 policy trees when going a different route (e.g. a Science Victory).

Comparing Aesthetics to Rationalism isn't a good comparison. Compare aesthetics to what is available in the Classical Era. Is it better to open Tradition and Liberty? Would you prefer to go Piety and get a Reformation Belief and a lot of ? Perhaps you want to open Honor before the Renaissance Era?

Another option might be to stall your and concentrate on early on and reach the renaissance Era faster making Rationalism your second policy tree. For me personally, this worked better in G&K. Since BNW, I find that the early game is slower and the policies come a bit quicker. It all comes down to play style though.

So lets compare it to piety.

A great thing about piety is the ability to easily pick up cathedrals, +3 culture an artist specialist slot, extra faith and sure why not some happiness to boot. This combine beautifully with sacred sites reformation belief to get incredible early tourism to the point that its broken.

Alternatively if you get unlucky you still have glory of god (buy GWAM), a ton of additional faith (probably close to double) and 20% discount on all GP purchases (which is much better than 25% GWAM generation)

You get a free great prophet which for an easy holy site will give you +3 culture (+6 when WC comes on) +3 gold and +6 faith.


Religion gives you much easier acess to early culture as cathedrals, monstaries or choral music outshine any of the ampitheatre, monument or opera

Lets not overlook that a shared religion gives you a nice boost to your tourism and allows you to pass world religion for 50% bonus to tourism.

And of course theocracy which gives you gold but if your not hurting for that you can skip it until you grab secularism without being hamstrung by the need to finish the tree to gain worthwhile benefits.

However, the best thing about piety is that it gives you flexability to overcome early obstacles (happiness problems can be fixed by reliougs buildings/beliefs), early gold problems have theocracy and holy sites and beliefs, and helps you with easy city state quests for military/food/culture.

 

[Mesix]

To clarify...Cathedrals now have a great work slot instead of a Great Artist slot.

The Reformation beliefs are quite nice too.

 

[Mesix]

I don't really think any of the policy trees are too bad in BNW. Each is situational and used for a different purpose. IMHO, the policy trees are much better designed than in BNW where Piety was kind of a 1/2 religion and 1/2 culture policy and not very good at either.