Why does a SE work?

[popejubal]

The strength of a CE lies in the happy cap. Pre-biology you need 3 citizens to run a single specialist 2 to work the farms and one as the specialist. At size7 I can work 7 riverside hamlets for 21commerce. At 70% science rate that is 14.7 beakers and 6.3 gold per turn. A SE can work 4 farms and run 3 scientists at 70% research that is 11.8 beakers and 1.2 gold per turn. And that is when they are hamlets.

After Drama (which you can get pretty early), this is exactly backwards. One of the great strengths of an SE compared to a CE lies in the happy cap.

Representation gives +3 along with the extra beakers, but that's something that a CE could do just as easily as an SE can. The difference in the happy cap comes from the research slider.

The research slider determines how much of your commerce is converted into gold/beakers/ESP. The research slider does nothing to beakers, gold and ESP generated by specialists.

If an SE is working 4 farms and running 3 scientists (which would be a pretty crappy city for an SE since you want to generate as much food as you can with as few citizens as possible), you will be generating 9 beakers under Monarchy and 18 beakers under Rep. This is true at 0% research and at 100% research. Only the commerce that comes from resources, rivers, trade routes and coastal tiles will be impacted by the research/culture ratio of your empire. Go ahead and slide that culture bar all the way up to 100% with a Theater and a Coloseum and watch your troubles disappear. Attacking an empire that has the Statue of Zeus? As long as you have a Jail and a Theater and Coloseum in your big cities, then you won't have a problem.

The culture slider is a hated necessity for a CE since it is essentially throws your commerce in the trash - except for the border cities where you could really use the culture, but those recently taken border cities usually have trash for commerce to begin with, so you're really not even getting much worthwhile there. As SE also loses beakers that would have come from commerce when you push up the culture bar, but since a good deal of the beakers in an SE come from specialists, it's not nearly the same loss that a CE would face.

Add to that the ability to turn a research city into a massive production city and then back into a research city whenever you need to and you have yourself a few extremely handy advantages for SE over CE.

I do run CE often. I also run SE often and in both cases, I almost always have at least some hybrid of the two. CE has a lot of great things going for it, but the biggest advantages of an SE are also the ones least recognized and most often misunderstood.

 

[6K Man]

Go ahead and slide that culture bar all the way up to 100% with a Theater and a Coloseum and watch your troubles disappear.

I wonder why the game designers didn't make the happiness effects of the culture bar dependent on commerce input? Everything else works that way - culture, science, gold.

 

[Wodan]

I wonder why the game designers didn't make the happiness effects of the culture bar dependent on commerce input? Everything else works that way - culture, science, gold.

Because they wanted to make SE a viable and interesting strategy.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

The strength of a CE lies in the happy cap. Pre-biology you need 3 citizens to run a single specialist 2 to work the farms and one as the specialist. At size7 I can work 7 riverside hamlets for 21commerce. At 70% science rate that is 14.7 beakers and 6.3 gold per turn. A SE can work 4 farms and run 3 scientists at 70% research that is 11.8 beakers and 1.2 gold per turn.

The river adds nothing to this example, and isn't a fair comparison. If you add a river to the CE you need to add it to the SE.

Wodan

 

[popejubal]

The strength of a CE lies in the happy cap. Pre-biology you need 3 citizens to run a single specialist 2 to work the farms and one as the specialist. At size7 I can work 7 riverside hamlets for 21commerce. At 70% science rate that is 14.7 beakers and 6.3 gold per turn. A SE can work 4 farms and run 3 scientists at 70% research that is 11.8 beakers and 1.2 gold per turn.

The river adds nothing to this example, and isn't a fair comparison. If you add a river to the CE you need to add it to the SE.

Wodan

If you have a river snaking through your city and lots of nice grassland tiles, that's a great city for a bunch of cottages (or a bunch of Windmills later in the game). If you have a couple of food resources, that's a great city for a SE. Adding a river doesn't do too much for a specialist city. Adding food resources doesn't do nearly as much for a commerce city as for a specialist city.

That's why the decision to run SE vs. CE to me tends to rest on a combination of the available land and the leader's traits. As big as Financial and Philosophical are for CE and SE respectively, it's the terrain that plays a bigger part in my economic strategy decision making.

 

[Wodan]

If you have a river snaking through your city and lots of nice grassland tiles, that's a great city for a bunch of cottages (or a bunch of Windmills later in the game).

Are you assuming that you're playing a Financial civ? The river does not have any synchronicity for a CE (except for a financial civ).

If you have a couple of food resources, that's a great city for a SE.

That's relative. A couple of food resources make a great city for a CE, too. In fact, they can allow you to have a cottage city where otherwise you would have only a production city.

Adding a river doesn't do too much for a specialist city.

It does just as much for the specialist city as it does for the (non-Financial) cottage city.

My main gripe with the original post was the commerce comparison did not grant the river to the SE while it granted it to the CE. The only benefit the CE gets is +1 commerce / tile. The SE should get that too.

Even Financial only benefits slightly during the "build up" stage, where the river changes the Financial benefit from +1/tile to +2/tile. Once you have hamlets, the river benefit goes back to +1/tile.

In any event, to have an apples-to-apples comparison, the SE should get the +1/tile too. You may say it's "not much" but it's only fair to give the SE that benefit in the math.

Adding food resources doesn't do nearly as much for a commerce city as for a specialist city.

Absolutely it does. It can allow you to work a few mines, or to whip, or to have cottages period where they would otherwise not be possible (e.g., mostly hills or plains). Whipping, for example, is a losing proposition in a cottage city UNLESS you have a couple of food resources.

Wodan

 

[popejubal]

Are you assuming that you're playing a Financial civ? The river does not have any synchronicity for a CE (except for a financial civ).

The river adds commerce. That's more important for a CE city than for an SE city. SE derives the bulk of its science from scientists and commerce is often an afterthought (although it is often a helpful afterthought). The CE derives most of its science from commerce, so added commerce has a bigger effect on the CE. In this case, I'm assuming that the CE has the research bar set significantly higher than the SE does since that is usually going to be the case.

That's relative. A couple of food resources make a great city for a CE, too. In fact, they can allow you to have a cottage city where otherwise you would have only a production city.

One food resource is wonderful for a cottage city. Two food resources are even better for a cottage city (although not twice as good). Three or four food resources are pretty much wasted since you want as many citizens to work cottages as possible and each cottage will produce 1 or 2 food (usually 2). That lowers the need for "bonus" food since each citizen is not choosing between food and research, but between {extra food} and {food + research}. In a specialist driven city, having 4 Fish and 16 Desert tiles is very nearly as good as having 4 Fish and 16 Flood Plains. In fact, in the early game, I'd much rather have 4 Fish and 16 Desert since there is less for the city to deal with.

A Cottage city wants to work as many cottaged tiles as possible. A Specialist city wants to work as few tiles as possible while maintining the highest population possible so that it can get lots of specialists. Obviously, a production city is different from both in that it wants as many hammers as possible and doesn't much care about how it gets them. Imagine a city site with 20 corn or wheat. There's not going to be a lot of cottages there. How about a city with all riverside grasslands and no resources? It's a great cottage city once it matures, but it will grow so slowly that you'll have already won or lost the game by the time it gets there.

For a Cottage city, you want enough food to help you grow, enough production to get whatever few critical buildings are necessary and the rest you want to have grassland so that you can build a cottage without whatever food surplus you have. Balance in all things.

For a Specialist city, you just want as big a food surplus as humanly possible so that you can whip out whatever buildings you need, regrow and support as many specialists as possible. Balance is irrelevant as long as you have a way to keep the population that you create happy.

Even Financial only benefits slightly during the "build up" stage, where the river changes the Financial benefit from +1/tile to +2/tile. Once you have hamlets, the river benefit goes back to +1/tile.

That's a +50% commerce bonus PER TILE that is further multiplied by buildings, civics, etc. That's absolutely enormous in the beginnings of the game when you have the greatest need for that commerce. Later, the river does go back to +1 per tile if you want to look at it that way, but that just means the Hamlet gets the bonus instead. Rivers give you your bonus earlier for Financial just like Philosophical gives the Great People earlier to a Specialist city. Even when the difference isn't numerically great, the ability to get those numbers earlier is enormous. Also, rivers give hills the opportunity to get +3 commerce from a Windmill instead of just +1 commerce for a Financial civ eons earlier than a Financial Leader's city without a river.

Absolutely it does. It can allow you to work a few mines, or to whip, or to have cottages period where they would otherwise not be possible (e.g., mostly hills or plains). Whipping, for example, is a losing proposition in a cottage city UNLESS you have a couple of food resources.

Wodan

This last part is absolutely true. One or two food resources can be very helpful for a Cottage city (and I'll count Flood Plains as a food resource here). More than that is just overkill and is generally wasted on a Cottage city, IMHO.

 

[Wodan]

The river adds commerce. That's more important for a CE city than for an SE city.

Why?

The CE derives most of its science from commerce, so added commerce has a bigger effect on the CE.

How?

In this case, I'm assuming that the CE has the research bar set significantly higher than the SE does since that is usually going to be the case.

If this is your answer to How, then I would only agree in the case where the SE has the culture slider set above 0%. In such as case, some percentage of commerce is essentially pissed down the drain for a benefit that you get no matter how much commerce is coming in.

For all other SE situations, I disagree. Commerce is changed to research or gold. If the CE has the research bar set higher than the corresponding SE, that is simply because the maintenance cost of the empire represents a higher percentage of the commerce income of the SE than the CE.

If maintenance is a fixed value, X, which it should be, while commerce income Y varies between the two, which it does, then it stands to reason that X is a smaller percentage of Y for the CE than the SE. That does not mean that the value of X is smaller for the CE, which is what you are implying, I think, and which I would disagree with.

One food resource is wonderful for a cottage city. Two food resources are even better for a cottage city (although not twice as good). Three or four food resources are pretty much wasted since you want as many citizens to work cottages as possible and each cottage will produce 1 or 2 food (usually 2).

Only extremely rarely do I find multiple city sites with more than 2 food resources. I'm lucky to get 1 or 2. Often in a game I'll find ONE city site with > 2 food resources, and that usually becomes my GP farm. But to find multiple city sites with > 2 food resources?

In other words, the situation you're describing is not something that I think is typical, and will be encountered only rarely, if at all.

A Cottage city wants to work as many cottaged tiles as possible. A Specialist city wants to work as few tiles as possible while maintining the highest population possible so that it can get lots of specialists.

I disagree.

The goal of a SE city is not to simply generate as much GPP as possible. For one thing, if the SE has a GP Farm, then GPP in other cities is largely wasted. The goal of a SE city thus is slightly different depending on whether the SE is running in "parallel" (no GP Farm) or "series" (GP Farm). In the latter case, where we can largely ignore the benefit of GPP, the benefit is simply a calculation of the hammers, science, and gold generated by the city in total, which is the sum of that provided by the specialists and that provided by worked tiles.

This is the exact same goal of a CE city.

So, can we conclude that the SE city wants to "get lots of specialists"? We can not. In fact, quite often, it would be desirable for the SE city to work high food tiles (to whip), high production tiles (to churn out units and buildings), and commerce tiles (to supplement specialist science and add gold).

Thus, does the SE city want to "work as few tiles as possible while maintaining the highest population possible"? No, and no.

Obviously, a production city is different from both in that it wants as many hammers as possible and doesn't much care about how it gets them.

A production city, as you have defined it here, often exists in a CE and a SE. It is largely irrelevant to this discussion.

Imagine a city site with 20 corn or wheat. There's not going to be a lot of cottages there.

Not a lot of production, either. What's your point?

How about a city with all riverside grasslands and no resources? It's a great cottage city once it matures, but it will grow so slowly that you'll have already won or lost the game by the time it gets there.

Again, what's your point? The goal is not to have a pretty city with all Towns. This city, whether a SE or CE, will produce quite a bit of benefit to your empire as it grows throughout the game. As the city grows, so will the benefit it provides. At some point, that city reaches its upper limit on the benefit it provides (barring new techs that allow new building multipliers)... you're saying the game is often won before the city gets to this point. So what? Are you saying that the city is not worth it? Obviously not... of course the city is worth it and any player would love to found a city on an all-grassland river site. So, again, what's your point?

For a Cottage city, you want enough food to help you grow, enough production to get whatever few critical buildings are necessary and the rest you want to have grassland so that you can build a cottage without whatever food surplus you have. Balance in all things.

Again, I disagree. A large amount of food is only necessary if you plan to whip. Production could be had in many ways, from tiles to whipping to cash buying. And, many excellent CE city sites are plains with a couple of food resources to allow cottaging.

For a Specialist city, you just want as big a food surplus as humanly possible so that you can whip out whatever buildings you need, regrow and support as many specialists as possible.

Whipping is dependent upon having a food surplus, not whether it's a CE or SE. A CE wants to whip just as much as a SE.

Here's your paragraph with a few words replaced:

For a Cottage city, you just want as big a food surplus as humanly possible so that you can whip out whatever buildings you need, regrow and support as many cottages as possible.

Isn't that true as well?

Balance is irrelevant as long as you have a way to keep the population that you create happy.

Please define "balance" as I don't know what you mean.

That's a +50% commerce bonus PER TILE that is further multiplied by buildings, civics, etc. That's absolutely enormous in the beginnings of the game when you have the greatest need for that commerce. Later, the river does go back to +1 per tile if you want to look at it that way, but that just means the Hamlet gets the bonus instead. Rivers give you your bonus earlier for Financial just like Philosophical gives the Great People earlier to a Specialist city. Even when the difference isn't numerically great, the ability to get those numbers earlier is enormous. Also, rivers give hills the opportunity to get +3 commerce from a Windmill instead of just +1 commerce for a Financial civ eons earlier than a Financial Leader's city without a river.

I agree with all this. But, your response has little to do with what I was saying.

Wodan