Why does Communism keep failing?

[Perfection]

In my ideal society that factors in, yes.

How does it factor in?

 

[luiz]

How would you epect? Human nature turns against it, but it could be done. But if you really wanted to know how it would be set up, consult Marx.

Marx advocated implementing it via a an armed revolution. Are you in agreement with him?

 

[North King]

How does it factor in?

Like, quite a bit. But we can't have a nation of all astronauts, can we?

Marx advocated implementing it via a an armed revolution. Are you in agreement with him?

No, but I also didn't want to answer a stupid trollbait.

 

[Perfection]

Like, quite a bit. But we can't have a nation of all astronauts, can we?

Very true, but can a person veto jobs, how does the government work with a person to provide a job? How does the government determine the wages?

'nother question, if a person has an idea for an invention or a service, how does the government allow that?

 

[Nobody]

They all ways try communsism in poor countrys, why not try it in a first world counrty like france or america

 

[North King]

Very true, but can a person veto jobs, how does the government work with a person to provide a job? How does the government determine the wages?

I suppose they just figure it out based on some algorithim that works well in theory and is tested in practice.

Wages aren't necessary, remember?

'nother question, if a person has an idea for an invention or a service, how does the government allow that?

See if it works and if so, produce it seems a pretty good idea.


Note also that I do not advocate pure Communism. Bit late to say this, but still...

 

[Fox Mccloud]

They all ways try communsism in poor countrys, why not try it in a first world counrty like france or america

Because we aren't that desparate!

 

[Perfection]

I suppose they just figure it out based on some algorithim that works well in theory and is tested in practice.

Fitting people to an algorithm? That seems rather dehumanizing.

Wages aren't necessary, remember?

Of course, because there would be no goods or services available to purchase

Okay, enough with the silly answer, why wouldn't there be wages

See if it works and if so, produce it seems a pretty good idea.

But how do you determine who gets money and time to work on thier invention.

Note also that I do not advocate pure Communism. Bit late to say this, but still...

Oh, so what do you advocate?

 

[Elrohir]

Human greed.

Exactly. Communism makes several basic judgements on human nature that simply do not fit in with reality, by it's very nature it is inherently flawed and cannot work unless it is used on a small scale, like with a town or monestary, or something like that, any bigger and it simply does not work.

 

[North King]

Fitting people to an algorithm? That seems rather dehumanizing.

Works, though.

Of course, because there would be no goods or services available to purchase

*snorts*

Okay, enough with the silly answer, why wouldn't there be wages

Because in a pure Communism, it isn't necessary.

But how do you determine who gets money and time to work on thier invention.

Ability, interest.

Oh, so what do you advocate?

Note the "pure", take a guess.

 

[Perfection]

Works, though.

Yeah, but that goes against your notion that it isn't fascist

Because in a pure Communism, it isn't necessary.

Well then how do we distrubute goods to folks?

Ability, interest.

How do you quantitatively measure that?

Note the "pure", take a guess.

I don't know! That's why I'm asking you!

Here is what I want to know:

1. Do you advocate a form of communism?
2. How do advocate the distribution of jobs?

 

[BasketCase]

Don't give me that b/s! Communism has been tried, AND IT FAILED! Are you telling me that Communism isn't about % the West or die, Be Atheist, or die, give up your rights, or die"? That's basically what it does. Soviet Union was Communist, It failed! You can't give your leaders absolute power like Communism does, because they start killig their people!

Don't even start me on this. THAT IS NOT AT ALL WHAT COMMUNISM IS! THAT'S THE FRIGGEN EQUIVALENT OF SAYING CAPITALISM IS ALL ABOUT PUTTING PEOPLE TO DEATH THROUGH STARVATION!

Wheeeee! Looks like this one's gonna be fun!!

Okay, so there's some debate on whether those nations that tried Communism were actually "Communist" nations. Well, if there never has been a "real" Communist nation, then the question can be asked: if Communism is such a great system, why has it never been tried???

 

[BasketCase]

Why shouldn't there be personal choice in jobs? It seems to balance out well in a capitalist society. There is no reason why the government needs to control this for communism.

The problem I see is this: if you allow people to choose for themselves what jobs they want, their choices will not precisely match the needs of society. You're going to end up short on, say, librarians. How are you going to get more librarians to sign up??

There are only two ways to do it: the carrot, or the stick. But the carrot isn't permitted; you can't offer bigger paychecks (or a company car or other incentives--those are simply other forms of pay) in a Communist society.

So all that's left is the stick. Threat of force. You could appeal to peoples' sense of responsibility in the hope that some citizens will put aside their favorite career choices and choose to be librarians instead. But, frankly, this is just a well-disguised form of peer pressure--and it may not produce enough librarians anyway. The only sure way to get enough librarians is to impose that career on some people by force.

(There's a mental picture I don't need--the librarian sitting behind the desk stamping and sorting books while a taskmaster stands watch with his whip at the ready)

 

[blindside]

Wheeeee! Looks like this one's gonna be fun!!

Okay, so there's some debate on whether those nations that tried Communism were actually "Communist" nations. Well, if there never has been a "real" Communist nation, then the question can be asked: if Communism is such a great system, why has it never been tried???

Because its almost impossible to implement. I believe there are several steps to achieve the final peaceful communal society with government dream at the end of it all. First you need a powerful socialist government to pretty much indoctrinate (brainwash) people into the system. The problem is that every attempt with communism fails there because almost all the power is handed over to a few and one has to expect them to be fair and uncorrupted. Second it isn't in human beings nature to all think in one manner etc.

I agree with the first part. Trying to debate with Fox is pointless.

 

[Comraddict]

I know ... every country that has big problems is not capitalistic country...capitalistic countries are only ones that are very successful. More than half of countries are poor today, and communism is present only in N Korea and China... so why the others are poor?

 

[BasketCase]

Heheh. I filed that one along with: "everybody who eats food, eventually dies, therefore eating causes death".

 

[Ramius75]

Communism cannot succeed, at least in this stage, for communism to seceed, it takes a even greater among of educated population and even then it might not.

Coz human are basically Lazy and greedy, if u noticed, this 2 traits does not really get together, so human is an animal fill with irony. For once we want to get as much as possible, but on the second all of us dont want to work.

This is the problem actually and most idealistic communism leader does not see that, They tot they can change human thru education, but from what i observed, having a high degree of modern education does not really work. I can see graduate littering when nobody was around and when in other countries (especially 3rd world) all the bad habits appeared and therefore, human also lack self discipline.

With such a flaw in the character. such an idealistic society of communism cannot work. and when forced on the population, it ended up with very bad results.

But like what North king said, communism is not really practice throughout history too, they ended up mostly in dictatorship, E.g Stalin , mao zedong and Kim jong ii. Cuba might be doing better, but then they can do much better under a free economy.

For such flaw in human being, the dog eat dog world of free economy is actually the best as it eleminate the lazy and only retain the greed. And like what Gordon gecko siad, "Greed is good".

 

[Vladyc]

The problem I see is this: if you allow people to choose for themselves what jobs they want, their choices will not precisely match the needs of society. You're going to end up short on, say, librarians. How are you going to get more librarians to sign up??

There are only two ways to do it: the carrot, or the stick. But the carrot isn't permitted; you can't offer bigger paychecks (or a company car or other incentives--those are simply other forms of pay) in a Communist society.

So all that's left is the stick. Threat of force. You could appeal to peoples' sense of responsibility in the hope that some citizens will put aside their favorite career choices and choose to be librarians instead. But, frankly, this is just a well-disguised form of peer pressure--and it may not produce enough librarians anyway. The only sure way to get enough librarians is to impose that career on some people by force.

But, in the U.S., there is no shortage of librarians. People continue to want to be librarians, despite the fact that there is neither a "carrot" or a "stick." I don't see why this should be any different in a communist system than a capitalist one. The same people who liked to sort books before, will continue to like to sort books.

People would still be working in the jobs most suitable for them. The people who are more intelligent will get jobs appropriate for them, they will just not get any higher rewards than say fast food workers.

So the freedom to choose a job would not be any greater than in the U.S.--those who are qualified for a job would get the job.

(Note: None of this is supposed to be from any type of actual communist theory. I have not read the Manifesto, and have no idea how they worked such things in the U.S.S.R.)

 

[BasketCase]

But, in the U.S., there is no shortage of librarians. People continue to want to be librarians, despite the fact that there is neither a "carrot" or a "stick."

Actually, sometimes there are shortages of librarians in the U.S.--just as now and then there are shortages (or surpluses!) in any other field.

The key point I'm making is that the number of people who choose to be librarians never precisely matches the number of librarians actually needed. Allowing the People to make their own career choices is not going to serve the Greater Good properly.

 

[Gelion]

Hmmm if you wait a couple of days I will finish my article on Communism (reality and theory) designated specially for this board. So far I agree with the first North Kings post.