Why does the US support Israel?

[Erik Mesoy]

Israel was formed as a legal state. Israel got attacked. Both sides are being a-holes today. 'Nuff said.

 

[anarres]

Stapel, if you really think you can equate being living as a palestinian in East Jerusalem to you moving to london then I wonder what happened to your mind of reason!

 

[Stapel]

Stapel, if you really think you can equate being living as a palestinian in East Jerusalem to you moving to london then I wonder what happened to your mind of reason!

hehe, It's not quite the same, indeed.
Bu that's a bit besides the point.

The only question is: When can you be an Israeli citizen? Living in East Jerusalem seems a bit far off.

You seem to think of Israel as bad-guys that do just anything to annoy Palestinians. It's a point of view, I find shortsighted.
So far, Israel is the only area overthere where universal laws of freedom and democracy apply.

Hey, if I say you are right, will you support me into the Mid Atlantic Ocean?

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Yeah, it's completely logical to hate the country which gives Arabs a full citizenship in a democracy, which allows them to enjoy all the freedoms of living in a democracy and which gives them social security, healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc, like they wouldn't get nearly anywhere in the arab world.

Every dictator and fascist state has a constitution in which full rights of freedom of press, freedom from discrimination, freedom to vote, and so forth are granted. The reality is, that in Israel, such things aren't worth the paper they're printed on for many, many palestineans.

Let me put it to you this way: if palestinean homes can be demolished with zero warning to the citizens for no real reason, then how is Israel granting democracy to its muslim population? The Israeli government can do whatever they want, whenever they want, and there is not a damn thing the arabs living in the West Bank (and other regions) can do or say to stop it.

Now comes the part where you feebly retort "but we're at war, look at the terrorists blow up buses full of nuns, etc" ad nauseum.

 

[IceBlaZe]

You must make a difference between the Palestinians living in the territories (West Bank and Gaza Strip) and Arab-Israelis, living inside 67 Borders that were granted full Israeli Citizenship.

Usually, Palestinian homes are being demolished for the following reasons:
1. The homes were used as cover/hideout by terrorists.
2. The homes were used to launch Qassam's.
3. The homes were used to dig weapon tunnels (in southern Gaza strip).

Equaly popular scenarios are houses that are demolished to ensure safe passage to Israeli defence forces.

There also used to be cases of houses of suicide bombers demolished as deterrance, but IIRC this procedure has been put on halt due to its moral and legal problematic character.

It is not true that there's "Zero warning" to the Palestinians. Before every demolition the IDF makes most efforts to warn and evacuate the residents of the building.

It's a sad fact that sometimes the only steps that can ensure safety to Israeli civilians, both Jewish and Muslim, are the same steps that will cause multiple local humanitarian crisis to Palestinian families. However, the mission of the IDF still is, and always was, to protect Israeli civilians, and sometimes it takes doubtful and hard measures that seem inordinary or unacceptable to the peaceful man.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

You must make a difference between the Palestinians living in the territories (West Bank and Gaza Strip) and Arab-Israelis, living inside 67 Borders that were granted full Israeli Citizenship.

Usually, Palestinian homes are being demolished for the following reasons:
1. The homes were used as cover/hideout by terrorists.
2. The homes were used to launch Qassam's.
3. The homes were used to dig weapon tunnels (in southern Gaza strip).

Equaly popular scenarios are houses that are demolished to ensure safe passage to Israeli defence forces.

There also used to be cases of houses of suicide bombers demolished as deterrance, but IIRC this procedure has been put on halt due to its moral and legal problematic character.

It is not true that there's "Zero warning" to the Palestinians. Before every demolition the IDF makes most efforts to warn and evacuate the residents of the building.

It's a sad fact that sometimes the only steps that can ensure safety to Israeli civilians, both Jewish and Muslim, are the same steps that will cause multiple local humanitarian crisis to Palestinian families. However, the mission of the IDF still is, and always was, to protect Israeli civilians, and sometimes it takes doubtful and hard measures that seem inordinary or unacceptable to the peaceful man.

Since the beginning of the al-Aqsa intifada, the IDF has demolished 628 housing units, which were home to 3,983 persons.

These homes were demolished because of the acts of 333 Palestinians. On average, 12 innocent people lost their home for every person suspected of participation in attacks against Israelis.

Almost half of the homes demolished (295 - 47%) were never home to anyone suspected of involvement in attacks against Israelis. As a result of these demolitions, 1,286 persons lost their homes even though according to Israeli officials they should not have been punished.

Contrary to its argument before the High Court of Justice that prior warning is given except in extraordinary cases, B'Tselem's figures indicate that in only 3% of the cases were occupants given prior notification of the IDF's intention to demolish their home.

Extensive destruction of property in occupied territories, without military necessity, constitutes a war crime.

Nice and recent, too.

But of course, since it's an independent third party site, it must be heavily biased.

 

[Elrohir]

Killing innocent civilians is a war crime as well. Even if that is true, which I highly doubt, (Show me an official US, UK or Isreali site with those statistics and I'll believe it) a thousand people living in a war zone and supporting terrorists losing their home doesn't impact me that much. Definently not as much as the little children and old women getting their arms and heads blown off in pizza parlors does. Face the facts Pasi: Palestine is a terrorist state that WILL stop it's terrorism, either by facing reality or getting blown up, Their choice.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Since the beginning of the al-Aqsa intifada, the IDF has demolished 628 housing units, which were home to 3,983 persons.

These homes were demolished because of the acts of 333 Palestinians. On average, 12 innocent people lost their home for every person suspected of participation in attacks against Israelis.

Almost half of the homes demolished (295 - 47%) were never home to anyone suspected of involvement in attacks against Israelis. As a result of these demolitions, 1,286 persons lost their homes even though according to Israeli officials they should not have been punished.

I wonder what the sentence "even though according to Israeli officials they should not have been punished" means, or what it was based on.
It is possible and even likely that Israeli officials said that the residents of the homes should not have been punished, but many demolitions are not "punishments" to the residents but preventive measures.

You said there's "Zero warning" and I said the IDF makes most effort to warn and evacuate. The material you brought forward does not contradict what I said, as it writes: "Most of the demolitions take place at night, and the occupants are given only a few minutes to remove their possessions from the house.".
As it appears, the IDF does warn the residents and lets them evacuate before demolition. As for "Early warning", during current security it is many times not possible since the demolition has to be immediate, or, in the past, a deterring procedure.

It is possible that in the past many demolitions were not completely necessary, but I know that today measures are taken to reduce those kind of demolitions.
As for deterrance demolitions, that is a touchy subject even today.
The IDF states that if destroying the home of the family of a terrorist will prevent future terrorists, it should do so. However, the procedure is examined today and I doubt it will continue. In addition, I doubt it is really efficient as you might deter 10 terrorists, but create 10 other from the family whos house you just demolished.

But of course, since it's an independent third party site, it must be heavily biased.

Not all third parties are innocent or perfect, just as the IDF isn't.
B'tselem, for example, send its volounteers to IDF barriers, and when the slightest argument erupts between a soldier and a Palestinian, they ignite it and use it for footage of "IDF Cruelty". I know it, as I've been there and saw it happen.

The IDF is a large army that protects the lives of millions. Not every action of it is considerate of the individual. It might upset you, but that's the way it is. Overall, the IDF is the most humane army there is. You can compare it with any army you want in history that was in any situation even a bit similiar, or at any kind of war, and you'll reach the same conclusion.

 

[Quasar1011]

The U.S. supports Israel, because God has pre-ordained it! Sure, that is a bold statement, but here is my reasoning.

Genesis 12:3 records God saying to Abraham, "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

This applies not only to Abraham, but to his descendants as the nation of Israel. So when I see radical Muslims carrying signs that say "Death to Israel! Death to America!" I know America is on the right side.

Acts 17:26 says of God, "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live."

This means that God has a plan for the United States. One of our chief reasons for existing, is to be Israel's ally!

However, I am concerned that that support is beginning to wane. President Bush supports a Palestinian state, with its capital in East Jerusalem. Bad, bad idea. For Psalm 122:2-4 states,

"Our feet are standing in your gates, O Jerusalem.
Jerusalem is built like a city that is closely compacted together.
That is where the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD ,
to praise the name of the LORD according to the statute given to Israel."

The USA will be in real trouble if we ever abandon support for Israel.

 

[Juka The Dumb]

The U.S. supports Israel, because God has pre-ordained it! Sure, that is a bold statement, but here is my reasoning.

Genesis 12:3 records God saying to Abraham, "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

This applies not only to Abraham, but to his descendants as the nation of Israel. So when I see radical Muslims carrying signs that say "Death to Israel! Death to America!" I know America is on the right side.

Acts 17:26 says of God, "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live."

This means that God has a plan for the United States. One of our chief reasons for existing, is to be Israel's ally!

However, I am concerned that that support is beginning to wane. President Bush supports a Palestinian state, with its capital in East Jerusalem. Bad, bad idea. For Psalm 122:2-4 states,

"Our feet are standing in your gates, O Jerusalem.
Jerusalem is built like a city that is closely compacted together.
That is where the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD ,
to praise the name of the LORD according to the statute given to Israel."

The USA will be in real trouble if we ever abandon support for Israel.

now it's getting scary..

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

Israel should have never existed in the first place. The land belongs to Palestine, and Palestine ONLY!!!!

You know my feelings about Israel. So I will refrain from my usual anti-israel flames. :devil2:

 

[amadeus]

Come on, If I move to East London, I am not a British citizen!

But my ancestors were British citizens. Therefore, I am a British citizen!

 

[Azadre]

Israel gets support for purposes of keeping the citizens of the Persian Gulf in shambles instead of actually using their heads and using oil revenues to modernize their Islamic states.

 

[G-Man]

So the arabs living in East Jerusalem are prisoners of war? Or are they citizens? According to Israel they are on Israli land...

Do they get to vote in Israeli elections?

They are Jordanian and Palestinian citizens and as such they get to vote in their elections, though since they live on Israeli land they were given all other rights of Israeli citizens.

 

[G-Man]

Every dictator and fascist state has a constitution in which full rights of freedom of press, freedom from discrimination, freedom to vote, and so forth are granted. The reality is, that in Israel, such things aren't worth the paper they're printed on for many, many palestineans.

In Israel it isn't worth much for Palestinians? What did you expect? Israeli laws apply to Israel, not to other places. The Palestinians have their own goverment and their own set of rules.

Let me put it to you this way: if palestinean homes can be demolished with zero warning to the citizens for no real reason, then how is Israel granting democracy to its muslim population?

First, if a Palestinian's home had been destroyed without a reason, they can turn to an Israeli court and as for compensations. The fact that they don't do this is a strong indicate for what's happening there. And I fail to see how it has anything to do with Israeli muslims.

The Israeli government can do whatever they want, whenever they want, and there is not a damn thing the arabs living in the West Bank (and other regions) can do or say to stop it.

They can go to the supreme court, which in the last 15 years or so had been very liberal in using its power over the goverment.

Now comes the part where you feebly retort "but we're at war, look at the terrorists blow up buses full of nuns, etc" ad nauseum.

I see great importance in using simple rules of logic in debates.


IceBlaZe - Good to see you still have some free time to drop by.

 

[rilnator]

I spose the US is faced with the Question: do we want the Jews or Muslims to control Christianity's holiest cities?

And due to the fact there are a lot of rich and powerful Jews in America, and because the Moslem has traditionally been the Christian's enemy I think America decided it was better off in Jewish hands.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Israel gets support for purposes of keeping the citizens of the Persian Gulf in shambles instead of actually using their heads and using oil revenues to modernize their Islamic states

This is a ridiculous statement, as the only countries that ever acted in that direction are the countries of the Persian Gulf themselves, and it had nothing to do with Israel.
Israel will only benefit from a modernization of the Arab and Middle-eastern world as such modernization comes hand in hand with peaceful initiations and the quenching of religious fanaticism which motivates anti-Israeli hatred.

 

[Fruit-Smack]

The US probably wanted more allies...

 

[Mario Feldberg]

National interests + ideology. It's hard to believe but during the early days France was Israel's primary ally and military supplier. They voted for the creation of Israel (unlike the US). Today the French first lady flies the Palestinian flag. That's because both the national interests and the ideology in France changed. Post-modern leftism (the "we hate anyone who is white, civilized and developed ideology") is to blame. No sane person would support backward fascists who use their own children as living bombs just to conquer Lebensraum and skin anyone who doesn't fit into their totalitarian collective alive. The mindset of the Palestinians is worse than that of the Germans during the nazi years. It's ridiculus that "liberals" support such people and want that they gain control of yet more territory. They blame Israel for denying democratic freedom for Palestinians, while the real issue is that most Palestinians have no respect for these freedoms. The Palestinians themselves are the real threat to their freedom. But somehow modern leftists thing that a nazi-style nationalist race war is "freedom fighting" if colored backward people do it. Talking about racism: any white guy with a Palestinian mindset would be called the worst scum on Earth by liberals. Calling Bush a reborn Hitler because he's against gay marriage but if the Palestinians kill and torture gays because the Qu'ran tells them to that's perfectly fine culture (at least as good as our Western one of course!) based on a religion of peace! F*cking retards..

 

[Jack the Ripper]

Israel should have never existed in the first place. The land belongs to Palestine, and Palestine ONLY!!!!

You know my feelings about Israel. So I will refrain from my usual anti-israel flames. :devil2:

Its not about Palistine, its about the aaaaarabs. All about the aaaaarabs. and how they have feeeelings.

Guess what, the middle east has 7.3 million square miles of land. Israel is only 20,330 sq. miles. Israel is therefore less than .3% of the whole middle east. They do not have profitable amounts of oil. 60 percent of israel itself is desert, and only 10 percent is worth anything agriculturally and economically.

Why do people care so much about an insignificant strip of land? It goes deeper than "it historically belongs to palisineans" which is a BS arguement.

If u WANT to use the "land belongs to palistine" arguement; THE ISRAELIS LIVED THERE CENTURIES BEFORE THE ARABS EVER DID!

The israelis accepted the arabs in palistine before israel became a nation. Once Israel officially became a country in 1948, THE ARABS DECLARED WAR, MORON!

The arabs could care less about the land. It is anti-jewish hatred only worsened and fueled by pro-arab sympathists is europe and asia. I know its an overused arguement, but its true. Some good quotes from arab countries following the creation of an Israeli state:

Kuwatley, President of Syria:
We live or die with Palistine!!

Al Kulta newspaper, Cairo:
500,000 Iraqis prepare for this holy war. 150,000 syrians will storm over the palistine borders and the mighty egyptian army will throw the Jews into the sea if they dare declare their state.

Jamil Mardam, Syrian Primeir:
Stop talking my brother moslems. Arise and wipe out the Zionist scourge.

Ibn Saud, King of Saudi Arabia:
There are fifty million arabs. What does it matter if we lose ten million people to kill all the jews? The price is worth it.

Seleh Harb Pasha, Moslem Youth:
Unsheath your swords against the jews! Death to them all! Victory is ours!

Shiek Hassan Al Bannah, Moslem brotherhood:
All arabs shall arise and annihilate the Jews! We shall fill the seas with their corpses.

Azzam Pasha, SECRETARY GENERAL OF THE ARAB LEAGUE:
This will be a war of extermination, and momentus massacre which will be spoken of like the mongolian massacres.

I think that speaks a million words right there. Ive never once heard a jew say the equivilent towards arabs. No wonder they were kicked out (actually, they ran out; but hey).