Mango201
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2019
- Messages
- 71
When I think of siege weapon viability, I tend to think of how many hits the best siege unit of its era takes to take down a typical city's walls when defended by a competent player (this doesn't apply to the AI - which is kind of stupid), and how many hits it can take in return.
For example, a typical Classical Era city's walls can destroy one Catapult in 3 turns [1].
Similarly, a Catapult will take 3 attacks to take down this city's walls [2].
A typical Medieval Era city will take 3-4 turns to destroy a Trebuchet [3].
While a Trebuchet will take 5-6 turns to take down this city's walls [4].
A typical Renaissance Era city will take 6-7 turns to destroy a Bombard Corps [5].
While a Bombard Corps will take 9-10 turns to take down this city's walls [6].
Obviously this metric is a gross oversimplification of viability and it omits dozens of factors e.g. you'll usually show up with more than one siege unit, cities are defended by units as well as walls, cities heal etc.
This is just a proxy for viability, but the picture it paints is that siege units become significantly less effective with each era. Walls don't only grow harder destroy, but they grow more lethal relative to the siege units firing at them.
My takeaway from this is that:
[1] Walls CS of 25 against defending CS of 25 = ~30 damage on the first shot with every subsequent shot dealing more due to the city being damaged. At this damage rate 3 shots are needed to go through 100 unit health.
[2] Bombard strength of 35 against city CS of 30 (Swordsman CS 35 -10 + 3 for Ancient Walls + 2 for a district) = ~37 damage on the first shot with every subsequent shot dealing more due to the city being damaged. At this damage rate 3 shots are needed to go through 100 Ancient Wall health.
[3] Wall CS of 40 against defending CS of 42 (Trebuchet CS of 35 + 7 for Crew Weapons) = ~28 damage on the first shot with every subsequent shot dealing more due to the city being damaged. At this damage rate 3-4 shots are needed to go through 100 unit health.
[4] Bombard strength of 45 against city CS of 50 (Knight CS 50 -10 + 6 for Medieval Walls + 4 for two districts) = 25 damage on the first shot with every subsequent shot dealing more due to the city being damaged. At this damage rate 6-7 shots are needed to go through 200 Medieval Wall health.
[5] Wall CS of 40 against defending CS of 62 (Bombard Corps base CS of 55 + 7 for Crew Weapons) = ~12 damage on the first shot with every subsequent shot dealing more due to the city being damaged. At this damage rate 6-7 shots are needed to go through 100 unit health.
[6] Bombard strength of 65 against city CS of 70 (Musketman Corps CS 65 -10 + 9 for Medieval Walls + 6 for three districts) = 25 damage on the first shot with every subsequent shot dealing more due to the city being damaged. At this damage rate 9-10 shots are needed to go through 300 Renaissance Wall health.
Note 1: The calculation above assumes that the city is garrison by a ranged unit. The viability of siege units comes under even greater doubt if you swap out this assumption for a melee garrison which would increase the strength of all cities in these calculations by 10.
Note 2: The calculations above also assume that the attacker and the defender are in the same era, but a domination player will likely find themselves attacking more advanced militaries against SV defenders, or ones boosted by more Civics Tree bonuses (Oligarchy, War of Religions, Corps, diplomatic visibility combat bonuses etc.) against CV defenders.
Note 3: This also omits all kinds of modifiers but most unique modifiers favor the defender (Bastions, Redoubt, Embrasure, Defender of the Faith etc.).
For example, a typical Classical Era city's walls can destroy one Catapult in 3 turns [1].
Similarly, a Catapult will take 3 attacks to take down this city's walls [2].
A typical Medieval Era city will take 3-4 turns to destroy a Trebuchet [3].
While a Trebuchet will take 5-6 turns to take down this city's walls [4].
A typical Renaissance Era city will take 6-7 turns to destroy a Bombard Corps [5].
While a Bombard Corps will take 9-10 turns to take down this city's walls [6].
Obviously this metric is a gross oversimplification of viability and it omits dozens of factors e.g. you'll usually show up with more than one siege unit, cities are defended by units as well as walls, cities heal etc.
This is just a proxy for viability, but the picture it paints is that siege units become significantly less effective with each era. Walls don't only grow harder destroy, but they grow more lethal relative to the siege units firing at them.
My takeaway from this is that:
- Bombards kind of suck at their job.
- Trebuchet's are far and away the inferior choice to Siege Towers, both because they have to deal more damage (a combined 300 city + Medieval Wall health vs 100 city health for Siege Towers), but also because they have a large penalty attacking land units defending the city.
- Catapults are kind of viable, but as covered above their upgrades aren't that attractive. They also suffer from the penalty to land units. A battering ram comes an era earlier and is probably the better pick.
[1] Walls CS of 25 against defending CS of 25 = ~30 damage on the first shot with every subsequent shot dealing more due to the city being damaged. At this damage rate 3 shots are needed to go through 100 unit health.
[2] Bombard strength of 35 against city CS of 30 (Swordsman CS 35 -10 + 3 for Ancient Walls + 2 for a district) = ~37 damage on the first shot with every subsequent shot dealing more due to the city being damaged. At this damage rate 3 shots are needed to go through 100 Ancient Wall health.
[3] Wall CS of 40 against defending CS of 42 (Trebuchet CS of 35 + 7 for Crew Weapons) = ~28 damage on the first shot with every subsequent shot dealing more due to the city being damaged. At this damage rate 3-4 shots are needed to go through 100 unit health.
[4] Bombard strength of 45 against city CS of 50 (Knight CS 50 -10 + 6 for Medieval Walls + 4 for two districts) = 25 damage on the first shot with every subsequent shot dealing more due to the city being damaged. At this damage rate 6-7 shots are needed to go through 200 Medieval Wall health.
[5] Wall CS of 40 against defending CS of 62 (Bombard Corps base CS of 55 + 7 for Crew Weapons) = ~12 damage on the first shot with every subsequent shot dealing more due to the city being damaged. At this damage rate 6-7 shots are needed to go through 100 unit health.
[6] Bombard strength of 65 against city CS of 70 (Musketman Corps CS 65 -10 + 9 for Medieval Walls + 6 for three districts) = 25 damage on the first shot with every subsequent shot dealing more due to the city being damaged. At this damage rate 9-10 shots are needed to go through 300 Renaissance Wall health.
Note 1: The calculation above assumes that the city is garrison by a ranged unit. The viability of siege units comes under even greater doubt if you swap out this assumption for a melee garrison which would increase the strength of all cities in these calculations by 10.
Note 2: The calculations above also assume that the attacker and the defender are in the same era, but a domination player will likely find themselves attacking more advanced militaries against SV defenders, or ones boosted by more Civics Tree bonuses (Oligarchy, War of Religions, Corps, diplomatic visibility combat bonuses etc.) against CV defenders.
Note 3: This also omits all kinds of modifiers but most unique modifiers favor the defender (Bastions, Redoubt, Embrasure, Defender of the Faith etc.).