Why have science and culture?

[mbbcam]

I'm more curious why it's beneficial from a gameplay/strategic-options-for-players aspect.

I would assume they've done it to add complexity. The more factors there are, the more difficult it is to evaluate them and make a decision. And from what little I've seen, I assume that there are interactions between the choices made in the Tech Tree and those in the Culture Tree. That would greatly increase complexity, and make it much more difficult to work out the potential synergies or anergies. I don't see how you could get such interactions without having two trees. (No doubt someone will come up with a way!!)

 

[Martin Alvito]

I would assume they've done it to add complexity. The more factors there are, the more difficult it is to evaluate them and make a decision.

That depends on how the systems are built. It's overwhelmingly likely that optimal Science play will require producing "just enough" Culture (and vice versa), which is more or less where we're at right now in CiV. It doesn't necessarily follow that having two trees instead of one is going to make the decisions any harder or more complex.

Count me in the camp that argues that the main reason for the decision is that placing unlocks in the Science tree doesn't make a lot of sense when those unlocks were historically associated with cultural advancement.

 

[Magil]

I like the Civic cards (or Policies as they seem to be calling them now), and the Government system, and how they interact. I'm not sure how I feel about the civic tree as functionally another tech tree though. It could go either way, it may be pointless or it may feel right. I'm going to have to wait until I can play with it to know for sure, I think.

 

[mbbcam]

That depends on how the systems are built. It's overwhelmingly likely that optimal Science play will require producing "just enough" Culture (and vice versa), which is more or less where we're at right now in CiV. It doesn't necessarily follow that having two trees instead of one is going to make the decisions any harder or more complex.

Count me in the camp that argues that the main reason for the decision is that placing unlocks in the Science tree doesn't make a lot of sense when those unlocks were historically associated with cultural advancement.

Agreed -- though count me in the camp that will find it much harder and more complex to make decisions when I have to evaluate two things instead of one -- I have a notable problem with fixation or Einstellung.

 

[cazaderonus]

Now that we've seen these trees and how they work on a basic level I figure it would be interesting to ask the question: why have both?

What if they were both consolidated into one resource (science) and one tech tree with all unlockables? Is there really a legitimate player choice here by having the two paths? Can a player somewhat ignore science to focus on culture and vice-versa as a legitimate game strategy?

This isn't an antagonistic question. I'm not against the design. I'm just curious what people think of it; merits or otherwise.

Well. Aint what you describe basically any civ before VI ? Where it was obvious that science was superior to everything else because it was needed well.... For everything else ?

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Everything was needed for everything else.

 

[xxhe]

I think having two trees are cool.

What bothers me is that no Biology/Genetics/Medic tech is left in the tech tree.

Those techs are important historically and can provide amenities/housing/city growth/etc in game as well.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

There are some sort of sanitation building in the tech tree.

 

[Big J Money]

To be clear, when I ask "why have culture and science" I'm speaking specifically about the resources only.

The alternative could be 1 resource called "Progress" that advances you on a tree that contains all techs and civics.

Gameplay wise, I'm just not sure Culture affecting borders and Tourism defence is enough of an incentive for me to really care. I get the feeling that I'm not really making a real decision. It's more like "Well duh, I need enough culture to not lose".

I wonder if things would be more interesting if culture were more incentivized (word?). It's clear that winning science races is awesome: win wonders, win wars, win the game (spaceship). The "culture race" is meh.... We at least now have a gold and religion race in the new Great People system. It's not as good as Science still, but I think it will make those things more interesting.

Okay my rambling is over for now.

EDIT: Another way to say it is that I still get some sense that all these other resources have a tacked-on feel to the classic Civ Science chassis, rather than feeling deeply integral.

 

[isau]

Now that I realize policy cards can only be exchanged at every major discovery of a new cultural milestone, it makes even more sense for the two trees to be separate.