Why is CiV HOF so restrictive?

[iggymnrr]

While I appreciate the thought that you can't play Civ5 unless you comply with the HOF rules, I think you give us too much credit. The HOF Rules state that we aren't accepting DLC content. If you are going to try to make us responsible for your buying decisions you should probably do your homework before buying.

The HoF does not allow Civ 5 to be used. It does not allow the game I bought at day 1 nor allow the game the OP bought now. The name Civ 5 should be removed from the HoF description all together. The game people buy and play is Civ 5. What they play in the HoF is not. Why should Civfanatics require people to do homework?

The thought was that when enough time has passed, hopefully, the DLC would be more inexpensive or free. When the majority of the players have it, we can look at including it.

By that logic the MLB should restrict players to "affordable" equipment. Perhaps Civfanatics could get them to follow it's competitive model: Little League equipment, Little League results.

Also, I think it is safe to say that the majority of the CivFanatics staff are not involved in or even very aware of the HOF. As an admin of the HOF, I and the rest of the HOF Staff moderate the HOF forum and operate the HOF Website. Please direct your criticisms where they belong.

As noted, you administer the HoF. This does not mean you represent Civfantatics as a whole. Nor do you make marketing decisions for the developer. You should not sit in judgment of them. What they have marketed is Civ 5. What you have defined in the HoF is not. The name Civ 5 needs to be removed from the HoF description.

 

[Peets]

The HoF does not allow Civ 5 to be used. It does not allow the game I bought at day 1 nor allow the game the OP bought now. The name Civ 5 should be removed from the HoF description all together. The game people buy and play is Civ 5. What they play in the HoF is not. Why should Civfanatics require people to do homework? By that logic the MLB should restrict players to "affordable" equipment. Perhaps Civfanatics could get them to follow it's competitive model: Little League equipment, Little League results.As noted, you administer the HoF. This does not mean you represent Civfantatics as a whole. Nor do you make marketing decisions for the developer. You should not sit in judgment of them. What they have marketed is Civ 5. What you have defined in the HoF is not. The name Civ 5 needs to be removed from the HoF description.

You do like the HoF for Civ 4.
You do not like the HoF for Civ 5.
I do not see any difference what they do for Civ 4 and for Civ 5.
They made a set of rules what is allowed and what is disallowed.
If you do not like it, fine. You have that right.
But all your arguments can be used against the HoF Civ 4 too and I see you still playing it...

 

[iggymnrr]

You do like the HoF for Civ 4.
You do not like the HoF for Civ 5.
I do not see any difference what they do for Civ 4 and for Civ 5.
They made a set of rules what is allowed and what is disallowed.
If you do not like it, fine. You have that right.
But all your arguments can be used against the HoF Civ 4 too and I see you still playing it...

You're missing the point. My argument is based on the use of the Civilzation V trademark name which is not owned by Civfanatics. The HoF used here needs to be phrased something like "HoF based on Civilization V ... etc." with suitable disclaimers that ensure that the developer may or may not agree with its content.

What I don't like is the presumed "theft" by Civfanatics of the Civilization V trademark name. As a civfanatic myself, that is offensive. As a buyer of Civ V I would expect that something with the name "Civilization V HoF" would be something from the developer accessible via Steam. Likely, something automatically tracked whenever Civ V is played by anyone not just readers of Civfanatics. To see it here is presumptive at best. I question it's legality. To participative in the current HoF is to sponsor trademark hijacking.

This may also be retroactive to Civ III and IV.

 

[Peets]

You're missing the point. My argument is based on the use of the Civilzation V trademark name which is not owned by Civfanatics. The HoF used here needs to be phrased something like "HoF based on Civilization V ... etc." with suitable disclaimers that ensure that the developer may or may not agree with its content.

What I don't like is the presumed "theft" by Civfanatics of the Civilization V trademark name. As a civfanatic myself, that is offensive. As a buyer of Civ V I would expect that something with the name "Civilization V HoF" would be something from the developer accessible via Steam. Likely, something automatically tracked whenever Civ V is played by anyone not just readers of Civfanatics. To see it here is presumptive at best. I question it's legality. To participative in the current HoF is to sponsor trademark hijacking.

This may also be retroactive to Civ III and IV.

Since when are you saying this argument? Since the rules of Civ V where not how you liked it? They are using it since Civ III so it is possible you did not bother it until now?

 

[Martin Alvito]

The HoF does not allow Civ 5 to be used. It does not allow the game I bought at day 1 nor allow the game the OP bought now.

Huh?

1) Civ 5 with zero DLC, Civ V with all possible DLC, or any combination thereof is still Civ 5.
2) Civ 5 played with any arbitrary additional set of rules players agree to is also still Civ 5.

This is probably easiest to see through example. If we sit down to play a series of games of chess, and mutually agree that neither of us will play 1. e2 e4 when it is our turn to play the White pieces, we are still playing chess.

I'm sure there's copyright case law out there that could be used to make the argument that if we add enough additional rules to an existing gaming intellectual property, it ceases to be that IP. However, your position requires you to both produce that case law and sustain the argument in this particular case.

 

[iggymnrr]

This is probably easiest to see through example. If we sit down to play a series of games of chess, and mutually agree that neither of us will play 1. e2 e4 when it is our turn to play the White pieces, we are still playing chess.

Absolutely correct. And I will offer a better example shortly. Your argument above fails when one considers that each chess piece may have to be bought before the game can be played. Your pieces may be different than mine, but they are both chess sets. The money spent on the sets is moot. (Perhaps Civfantics should ban anyone's base game because they bought a cheap base version off eBay for $1.)

Now consider 2K Games coming out with their own Civilization V HoF. By right of ownership, Civfanatics' version is invalid. For Civfanatics to offer a Civilization V HoF is like removing Sid Meier's name from the box and replacing his name with Civfanatics' name. Thus Civfanatics offering an HoF needs to be clearly called what it is: something based on Civilization V. This is exactly what the current gauntlets are and what your example above is: merely moments in time where players agree to play under certain rules. The current HoF for Civ V is nothing more than a limited gauntlet.

Furthermore, consider the times in which we now play. Is it possible for 2K Games to make Civilization V HoF entry as simple as a 2-step process: buy Civ V, play Civ V? Steam does the rest. In fact, such a Civilization V HoF venture could be called "official" and sold as DLC. Also, Steam can handle any "merchandising" one may expect from an HoF in general.

No, the time has come for Civfanatics to deprecate it's HoF.

 

[iggymnrr]

Since when are you saying this argument? Since the rules of Civ V where not how you liked it? They are using it since Civ III so it is possible you did not bother it until now?

Short argument: what is possible now wasn't possible then. You err when you mention "rules of Civ V." It should be phrased "rules of Civfanatics." Be aware that Civfanatics has no right to make any rules for Civ V.

 

[Peets]

Short argument: what is possible now wasn't possible then. You err when you mention "rules of Civ V." It should be phrased "rules of Civfanatics." Be aware that Civfanatics has no right to make any rules for Civ V.

They have all the right to make rules for their HoF.
Otherwise nobody is allowed to make any rules about any game.

Absolutely correct. And I will offer a better example shortly. Your argument above fails when one considers that each chess piece may have to be bought before the game can be played. Your pieces may be different than mine, but they are both chess sets. The money spent on the sets is moot. (Perhaps Civfantics should ban anyone's base game because they bought a cheap base version off eBay for $1.)

Now consider 2K Games coming out with their own Civilization V HoF. By right of ownership, Civfanatics' version is invalid. For Civfanatics to offer a Civilization V HoF is like removing Sid Meier's name from the box and replacing his name with Civfanatics' name. Thus Civfanatics offering an HoF needs to be clearly called what it is: something based on Civilization V. This is exactly what the current gauntlets are and what your example above is: merely moments in time where players agree to play under certain rules. The current HoF for Civ V is nothing more than a limited gauntlet.

Furthermore, consider the times in which we now play. Is it possible for 2K Games to make Civilization V HoF entry as simple as a 2-step process: buy Civ V, play Civ V? Steam does the rest. In fact, such a Civilization V HoF venture could be called "official" and sold as DLC. Also, Steam can handle any "merchandising" one may expect from an HoF in general.

No, the time has come for Civfanatics to deprecate it's HoF.

If 2K Games makes a HoF V then the only thing that CivFanatics has to do is put the word "Unofficial" before it. That's it. And your argument you use against Chess makes no sense at all. It does not matter what kind of set you have, if you play chess you play chess. If you play it under some made up rules it is still chess.

Is it allowed to play with my star wars chess set on the world championship chess? Hmm, they should remove it then.

 

[iggymnrr]

If 2K Games makes a HoF V then the only thing that CivFanatics has to do is put the word "Unofficial" before it. That's it. And your argument you use against Chess makes no sense at all. It does not matter what kind of set you have, if you play chess you play chess. If you play it under some made up rules it is still chess.

Martin's analogy to chess makes no sense. Chess is in the public domain and not under IP. Civfanatics simply has no right to place ANY restrictions on Civilization V and still call it Civilization V.

Joke in the 2K breakroom: First employee, "How's the idea for the new civ coming?"
Second employee, "Gave up on the idea, Civfanatics will only ban it."

You mentioned earlier that I seem to have trouble with rules. There is good reason. I am not a thief. Render unto 2K Games what is 2K Games'. Civfanatics should not be engaged in theft period.

Edit:

If 2K Games makes a HoF V then the only thing that CivFanatics has to do is put the word "Unofficial" before it.

Before or after Civfanatics bans the "official" HoF?

Is it allowed to play with my star wars chess set on the world championship chess? Hmm, they should remove it then.

Since only 2K Games can say what Civilization V is, then the Civfanatics HoF IS the "star wars chess set" and as you have pointed out then it cannot be used.

 

[Peets]

Martin's analogy to chess makes no sense. Chess is in the public domain and not under IP. Civfanatics simply has no right to place ANY restrictions on Civilization V and still call it Civilization V.

Joke in the 2K breakroom: First employee, "How's the idea for the new civ coming?"
Second employee, "Gave up on the idea, Civfanatics will only ban it."

You mentioned earlier that I seem to have trouble with rules. There is good reason. I am not a thief. Render unto 2K Games what is 2K Games'. Civfanatics should not be engaged in theft period.

Edit:Before or after Civfanatics bans the "official" HoF?
Since only 2K Games can say what Civilization V is, then the Civfanatics HoF IS the "star wars chess set" and as you have pointed out then it cannot be used.

They do not place any restrictions on Civ V. You can play it how you want it.
If you want to play CivFanatics Civilization V Hall of Fame then there are restrictions since it their Hal of Fame and not of 2K Games. It is up to you if you want to play this or not. But you can still play the game how you want it. Civfanatics has nothing to do with Civ V game.

We are playing a mod. And mods are allowed.
You can play a mod and still call it Civ V.
The only difference here is, that you don't have to load the mod but we do it manually. And then we send our games to a Hall of Fame to compare. But it is still Civ V. So they are allowed to use the name.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Martin's analogy to chess makes no sense. Chess is in the public domain and not under IP. Civfanatics simply has no right to place ANY restrictions on Civilization V and still call it Civilization V.

Easily falsified through example. If we start a Counter-Strike league and declare that the purchase of the AWP is disallowed, it's still a Counter-Strike league. Individual house rules don't invalidate the IP.

We've agreed upon the existence of a limit beyond which rules changes would render Civ V unrecognizable as an IP. You still haven't advanced an argument for why that limit is objectively where you state it is. Peets correctly points out that the existence of mods and their explicit endorsement by the developers suggests that the limit is further out than you propose. That's pretty damning evidence against your case.

 

[iggymnrr]

We've agreed upon the existence of a limit beyond which rules changes would render Civ V unrecognizable as an IP. You still haven't advanced an argument for why that limit is objectively where you state it is. Peets correctly points out that the existence of mods and their explicit endorsement by the developers suggests that the limit is further out than you propose. That's pretty damning evidence against your case.

You are forgetting that those mods are marketed as mods. Unlike the Civfanatic HoF, they do no claim to be Civ V but mods of Civ V which is what the HoF is. It is time for Civfanatics to treat it's HoF for what it is, a mod.

How many more releases of new civs is it going to take before it sinks in? 9 more are coming out soon. Will there be a Civfanatics HoF claiming to be Civ V with it's 15 or so civs when there is over 100 civs out there?

Easily falsified through example. If we start a Counter-Strike league and declare that the purchase of the AWP is disallowed, it's still a Counter-Strike league. Individual house rules don't invalidate the IP.

Easily refuted by fact. All it will take is for 2K to release it's own HoF and it will be apparent that Civfanatics IS the Counter-Strike league. Why should Civfanatics claim it's HoF be official and discourage sales of the very product it represents? Can 2K claim fiscal damage from the policy of Civfanatics to claim that the HoF is Civ V?

Martin could not be a better spokesman to support my argument. The underlying assumption in this comment ASSUMES Civfanatics has the right to use the Civilization V name at will. Companies tend to challenge these assumptions when their copyrighted names are at risk. Martin has just stood up and said that Civfanatics and not 2K Games speaks for Civilization V.

 

[Peets]

You are forgetting that those mods are marketed as mods. Unlike the Civfanatic HoF, they do no claim to be Civ V but mods of Civ V which is what the HoF is. It is time for Civfanatics to treat it's HoF for what it is, a mod.

It does not matter if it states mods or not. If you are allowed to make mods then it why shouldn't you be allowed to make a HoF like Civfanatics does?

How many more releases of new civs is it going to take before it sinks in? 9 more are coming out soon. Will there be a Civfanatics HoF claiming to be Civ V with it's 15 or so civs when there is over 100 civs out there?

You should know, as a Civ IV player that when a expansion pack comes out, the hof gets updated with the new expansion.
An expansion is not the same as an DLC.

Easily refuted by fact. All it will take is for 2K to release it's own HoF and it will be apparent that Civfanatics IS the Counter-Strike league. Why should Civfanatics claim it's HoF be official and discourage sales of the very product it represents? Can 2K claim fiscal damage from the policy of Civfanatics to claim that the HoF is Civ V?

Where do you find the name Official? And you are saying that this is "the" HoF. But I know in fact that there is another kind of HoF with their own rules.

Martin could not be a better spokesman to support my argument. The underlying assumption in this comment ASSUMES Civfanatics has the right to use the Civilization V name at will. Companies tend to challenge these assumptions when their copyrighted names are at risk. Martin has just stood up and said that Civfanatics and not 2K Games speaks for Civilization V.

They are doing this for several years now, if they had a problem with it they would have heard it a long time ago. I am afraid it is only you (Or a small selected group) with the problem.

 

[iggymnrr]

It does not matter if it states mods or not. If you are allowed to make mods then it why shouldn't you be allowed to make a HoF like Civfanatics does?

The point is that mods don't speak as if they are Civilization V. The pic you see on Civfanatics for the HoF says Civilization V not a mod name.

They are doing this for several years now, if they had a problem with it they would have heard it a long time ago. I am afraid it is only you (Or a small selected group) with the problem.

There is truth in this. The group can be made smaller. All it takes is ONE person at 2K to contract an attorney. Also, it doesn't matter if the group you mention happens to be on an island no one has ever heard of before. Companies WILL protect their copyright if they desire to do so. No group is too small or too far to escape their reach.

You also reason with out Steam. They also have a stake in Civilization V. Why should Civfanatics deprive them of business? I suspect, with Steam, the group you refer to is not small. People buy Civ V and play it all without knowledge of Civfanatics. Then they come to Civfanatics and see the HoF and wonder the same thing the OP did. Why is the HoF so restrictive?

I would go further and say that the only official HoF for Civilization V should be available through 2K's distribution arm, Steam.

You should know, as a Civ IV player that when a expansion pack comes out, the hof gets updated with the new expansion.
An expansion is not the same as an DLC.

DLC is the same as an expansion. (Or as a means for people to try out a new patch.)

 

[Denniz]

@iggymnr, I think we all get that you are pissed because we (the HOF Staff) won't accept your games if you use your DLC. I suggest you take a deep breath and count to 10. A little reality check may be in order.

We do not have a mod of any kind for Civ5. There are no downloads required to submit to the Civ5 HOF. I assume you know that us not accepting DLC has nothing to do with the functionality of the your game. (You can use your DLC anytime you wish.)

We are nothing more than a website and forum that lets people brag about their best games. (i.e. Hall of Fame) We try to rank games that were played under similar conditions so people can brag about their best games some more. We provide Gauntlets and VVV to give people some fun ways decide what games to play. It also gives people even more ways to brag about their best games.

In order to provide this service (which is totally free, btw), we have to set the rules so that the comparisons are as fair as possible. Someone has to write the code to make the website work and to pull the needed information out of the save files. All that is free as well. The people writing code or managing the website and forums are all volunteers. (i.e. They work for free!)

So to sum up, you are pissed because the free, all volunteer website won't let you submit games using your DLC.

Really?!?

 

[iggymnrr]

So to sum up, you are pissed because the free, all volunteer website won't let you submit games using your DLC.

Wrong. I am upset that you use the name Civ V to reject games using DLC and, for another matter, make rules claiming them to represent Civ V.

To sum up: if it isn't authenticated by Steam then it is not Civilization V. Civfanatics must either rename it's HoF to something not using Civ V name's directly, like any other mod, or be granted the right to use Civ V's name and have it, the Civilization V HoF, go through the authentication process via Steam.

 

[Arnold_T]

So here's an idea iggymnrr: why don't you start a new website to compete with civ5 HoF that accepts games for a HoF with DLC? Then the civfanatics HoF guys could just play Civ V, and let you do all the work of maintaining the HoF!

 

[Denniz]

Wrong. I am upset that you use the name Civ V to reject games using DLC and, for another matter, make rules claiming them to represent Civ V.

To sum up: if it isn't authenticated by Steam then it is not Civilization V. Civfanatics must either rename it's HoF to something not using Civ V name's directly, like any other mod, or be granted the right to use Civ V's name and have it, the Civilization V HoF, go through the authentication process via Steam.

We have a Hall of Fame site for Civ5 games. What would you suggest we call it? There is also a Hall of Fame site for Civ4 and one for Civ3 that we run. There is a Hall of Fame page for Civ2 out there as well (not sure who manages it). I think the Firaxis and Take2 know we exist. I am sure they are capable of handling things for themselves should they have a problem with the name.

Please do all of us a favor and let it rest. The DLC and the new expansion will make their appearance in due time. All we have to do is figure out how to fit it all together.

 

[vexing]

Civfanatics must either rename it's HoF to something not using Civ V name's directly

why are you pretending to be some representative of 2k games?

i nominate we rename the hall of fame into "dennis shirk & nike sponsored civilization 5 official hall of fame."

 

[Peets]

DLC is the same as an expansion. (Or as a means for people to try out a new patch.)

Can you buy DLC in my local store? Nope only on steam.
Can you buy expansions in my local store? Yes.

I already found one difference, that is enough.