Why is CiV HOF so restrictive?

Mesix

The Allfather
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Mar 17, 2006
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I have been playing CiV for about a month now, but I have not submitted any HOF games despite being a longtime HOF member. I have been content to check off Steam Achievements and play though scenarios rather than taking the time to set up games to compete for HOF. I was trying to figure out why I do not feel inclined to participate in CiV HOF up until now, and here are some of the things that I feel are too restrictive (when compared to Civ 4 HOF). I've always felt that the HOF should be more inclusive rather than exclusive allowing for more variety of players and play styles.

The following list is in the order of how these restrictions are listed in the official rules.


1. Versions which can be played.

Civ 4 accepts games in 3 different versions to include players who have Vanilla only, Warlords, or BTS expansion. CiV only allows Vanilla and excludes players who have DLC or the GOTY edition unless they are willing to disable features of their game.


2. Number of AI players (and City States)

Civ 4 allows the player to adjust the density of opponents on the map to allow for different play styles. As an example, on a large map, the player could choose to have between 8 and 14 civs on the map. CiV HOF submissions only allow the default setting to be used. It would be nice to be able to adjust the number of AI players and to both increase or decrease the number of CS in the game for different playing styles.


3. Allowable Civilizations

Civ 4 allowed all civilizations to be played (but Inca Quecha rushes were banned from EQM games). CiV restricts both player and AI opponents to Vanilla + Mongolia. This is somewhat related to #1, but deserves special recognition here for this reason. I feel that it should not be a requirement for me to alter the version of the game that I own as a prerequisite for HOF submission. I would like to be able to allow the game to randomly select my opponents (or even my civ) and to be able to use all official content released by the publisher of the game. If there are exploits related to a particular civilization, they should either be addressed by banning a particular exploit or allowed with the understanding that all players can use said features so there is a level playing field.


4. Starting Era

In Civ 4 HOF, any starting era is acceptable (although most EQM requirements require an Ancient Era start. In CiV, only Ancient Era starts are acceptable.


5. Game Settings

There are more game setting options in Civ 4 then in CiV. One of particular interest is the Barbarian settings. In Civ 4 the player can play with any level of barbarian activity. In CiV, no barbarians is banned. With the AI inability to handle barbarians very effectively, I would think that Raging Barbarians in CiV would be considered more of an exploit than No Barbarians. IMHO, both should be allowed with the understanding that all players can choose to have none, some, or lots of barbarians to suit their style of play.
 
most of your questions can be answered "to give a level playing field."

there have been at least a few threads about dlc you can refer to,
personally i'm happy the number of AI and CS is set, otherwise it'd just be another setting to game,
no barbarians breaks german, songhai and ottoman UAs,

i can see changing the starting era allowable, however i highly doubt the results are comparable so it'd need to be another general setting that would dilute the tables even further
 
For gauntlet reasons, I can see why the DLC civilizations won't be included but pure for the HoF I don't see a reason except that some people might not have the ability to play them if they don't bought them.

Some people can always choice them and then not being able to be beaten by everyone.
Perhaps in the future, a expansion pack will come out where you receive all the DLC's and then it might be possible to let them in.
 
Many people chose not to buy Warlords or BTS. There was a Vanilla version of HOF for Civ 4 and also versions for the other officially released content for people who chose to play with all of the optional content. I really don't see how DLC or GOTY edition are any different except in the way that the additional official content is sold. For a level playing field point of view, if everyone can use the DLC, then everyone has a level playing field. For those who choose to play with only the content released over a year ago, they could play the Vanilla version and only be compared to players with similar settings. For those that have all the content, they could be included in the competitive nature of the HOF without having to defeature the content which they bought.
 
most of your questions can be answered "to give a level playing field."
I would contend that a level playing field has never been the goal of the HoF before.
It's not restrictive enough, the table are hopelessly diluted already
Gauntlet games the have "civs must include ..." should be prohibited from HoF tables altogether. That's wanton dilution and table skew combined.
 
I always end up making a new game with the same settings as HoF and game of the month, but with all random civs except the one they want you to play. Since they don't allow DLC and I didn't buy them to not play them. So while I've played most of them I can never upload.
 
If people are given a specific Civ to play such as the Ottomans, I cant see how having DLC civs as opponents unbalances the game.

I also dont accept the reasons to disallow the DLC civs, this isnt giving players a level playing field and these Civs are available to everyone to buy, just like Warlords and BTS introduced new Civs.

The mechanic would be the equivalent of saying that BTS and Warlords arent allowed for Civ IV HOF games, only Vanilla Civ IV.
 
If people are given a specific Civ to play such as the Ottomans, I cant see how having DLC civs as opponents unbalances the game.

I also dont accept the reasons to disallow the DLC civs, this isnt giving players a level playing field and these Civs are available to everyone to buy, just like Warlords and BTS introduced new Civs.

The mechanic would be the equivalent of saying that BTS and Warlords arent allowed for Civ IV HOF games, only Vanilla Civ IV.

No, I don't agree with your arguments ... for example ...

When will non-free DLC be available in a brick and mortar store (real store)? I'm still waiting for the credit card free option ...

When Firaxis releases a Civ V Edition comparable to what Warlords and Beyond the Sword was for Civ IV, the HoF will probably accommodate it.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
No, I don't agree with your arguments ... for example ...

When will non-free DLC be available in a brick and mortar store (real store)? I'm still waiting for the credit card free option ...

When Firaxis releases a Civ V Edition comparable to what Warlords and Beyond the Sword was for Civ IV, the HoF will probably accommodate it.

Sun Tzu Wu

There is a new edition of Civ V which includes some of the DLC's.

Civilization 5 game of the year:

Includes the Following Civilization V content
All 4 Cradle of Civilization Map Packs (Mediterranean, Asia, Americas, Mesopotamia)
Civilization Pack: Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar II)
Double Civilization and Scenario Pack: Spain and Inca
Civilization and Scenario Pack: Polynesia
Civilization and Scenario Pack: Denmark - The Vikings
Explorer’s Map Pack
Official Digital Soundtrack
 
No, I don't agree with your arguments ... for example ...

When will non-free DLC be available in a brick and mortar store (real store)? I'm still waiting for the credit card free option ...

When Firaxis releases a Civ V Edition comparable to what Warlords and Beyond the Sword was for Civ IV, the HoF will probably accommodate it.

Sun Tzu Wu

http://store.steampowered.com/app/901772/

Thats all. There is zero difference between DLC and expansions, other than the customers perceived value of either method.

The exclusion of DLC Civs would be 100% identical to excluding Warlords and BTS, I cant understand why some Civ fans are so whiney to exclude people who but the DLCs from being able to play HOF with their expanded content.
 
http://store.steampowered.com/app/901772/

Thats all. There is zero difference between DLC and expansions, other than the customers perceived value of either method.

The exclusion of DLC Civs would be 100% identical to excluding Warlords and BTS, I cant understand why some Civ fans are so whiney to exclude people who but the DLCs from being able to play HOF with their expanded content.

As I stated above, but DLC is not the same as expansions.
Expansions can be bought in a store.
DLC not.
That is a major difference.
 
Clearly DLC is not at all the same as an expansion like WL or BtS which include significant additions like Warlords/Great General and Espionage systems. DLC is little more than an extra Civ and Leader plus a few things related to that Civ and Leader.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
As I stated above, but DLC is not the same as expansions.
Expansions can be bought in a store.
DLC not.
That is a major difference.
Steam is the source not a store. DLC is the expansion model chosen by developers. It is wrong for Civfanatics to say that the expansion model is not kosher. Civfanatics should not take sides against the developer.

In my opinion the Civ V HoF should be shut down unless it supports all civs. Not one single record is legitimate. I do not come to Civfantatics to be told that the game I bought is somehow not real.
 
Steam is the source not a store. DLC is the expansion model chosen by developers. It is wrong for Civfanatics to say that the expansion model is not kosher. Civfanatics should not take sides against the developer.

In my opinion the Civ V HoF should be shut down unless it supports all civs. Not one single record is legitimate. I do not come to Civfantatics to be told that the game I bought is somehow not real.

Okay...
but why did you quote me? :)

And you don't have to come here :)
 
Okay...
but why did you quote me?
Game of the Year Edition. Even if available in stores, includes DCL ... it still needs Steam.
And you don't have to come here
True, but is Civfantatics willing to pay my refund of Civ V if I do come here?
 
Game of the Year Edition. Even if available in stores, includes DCL ... it still needs Steam.

The discussion was not if you need steam but if you can buy it in a store.

True, but is Civfantatics willing to pay my refund of Civ V if I do come here?

Why should they?

They spend their own free time in providing this great service without any compensation. So they have the right to choice what is legitimate and what is not.
 
Why should they?

They spend their own free time in providing this great service without any compensation. So they have the right to choice what is legitimate and what is not.
Civfanatics prompted me to purchase Civ V and then told me it was not usable. Civfantatics lied to me. This is disservice not great service.
 
Civfanatics prompted me to purchase Civ V and then told me it was not usable. Civfantatics lied to me. This is disservice not great service.

They said you have to buy Civ 5 DLC and then you may not use it?
 
Civfanatics prompted me to purchase Civ V and then told me it was not usable. Civfantatics lied to me. This is disservice not great service.

While I appreciate the thought that you can't play Civ5 unless you comply with the HOF rules, I think you give us too much credit. The HOF Rules state that we aren't accepting DLC content. If you are going to try to make us responsible for your buying decisions you should probably do your homework before buying.

Also, I think it is safe to say that the majority of the CivFanatics staff are not involved in or even very aware of the HOF. As an admin of the HOF, I and the rest of the HOF Staff moderate the HOF forum and operate the HOF Website. Please direct your criticisms where they belong.

------

On a more general note, we set the rules to prevent people with more money or desire for the DLC content from gaining an advantage. The thought was that when enough time has passed, hopefully, the DLC would be more inexpensive or free. When the majority of the players have it, we can look at including it.

It is more difficult to deal with the DLC model than expansions. DLC comes out piece-meal. Including DLC in the competition immediately requires constant adjustments. Even the Civ4 expansions had to wait a few months before we had prepared the HOF Mod and Website for them.
 
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