Why is it said that Germany started WW1?

[Adler17]

As I already said: The French would have to fire the first shot. That was the mistake. So what about Belgium? Belgium declared it was neutral. But otherwise they let the French cross their territory. This would have been a perfect casus belli. Also the British were not eager to fight only for Serbia. That was a bit too few. Their casus belli was Belgium. However if the French used Belgium as a battlefield with the willing of the Belgish government there was also no reason to go for war. If the British then would go for war more sympathies (sp???) they would have lost in the US. Germany then would have been in a similar situation then before, only that the French would have made Belgium to a battlefield. The German strike would have been the same, perhaps a bit slowlier but therefore with better supply routes. Paris would have been in danger anyways.
Seleucus, you said that you have to take Paris only via Belgium. Well the Schlieffen plan did work very well until the Marne. However it is in no way a must: the Germans made it in 1870/ 71.
Concerning Victoria: No Edvard VII. was dead when ww1 broke out. Although the British monarchy had few power influence was still there. I don´t think the government could do something fully against the will of the king. However the German British relationship were the best in 1914. With an understanding ww1 would perhaps nebver happend in this form.

Adler

 

[Verbose]

Serbia as a terrorist state and the situation comparable to post 9/11?

Hardly!

Serbia could perhaps be called an 'operatic' little kingdom with shoddy politics, but the cause of this kind of political terrorism was the Austrian annexation of Bosnia from the Ottoman Empire.
Blame nationalist politics by all means, but the real terrorizing beeing done in 1914 was done by Austria — in the frame of mind that all these little Balkan states were there to be gobbled up at the leasure of some great power sooner or later anyway. An attitude not relished by any of the small nations around the world.

The real terrorists in 1914 were the great powers with their ideas about the special prerogatives of powerful nations, the 'white man's burden' and 'civilising mission'.

As for the WWI blame game, Germany still gets more of a pounding that it actually deserved — but describing it as earnestly trying to avoid war is stretching things a bit.
Initially they weren't. They just thought this was going to be another quick Austrain punitive expedition into the Balkans, possibly liquidating Serbia.
Once the German political leadership realised they were on a slippery slope to a great power-war, it desperately tried to set things right, but the reason they were there was due to the mechanisms of a policy based ot threats and display if force. Which was how everybody played it at the time — only this time Germany stood to loose more than the other great powers.

Obviously no one really wanted a big war, certainly not Germany — they just gambled that the Russians would chicken out and Britian wouldn't feel obliged to get stuck in, in which case France certainly wouldn't have a hope in hell of pulling of a victorious war against Germany.
With Russia mobilising (perhaps not quite realising the effect it would have), and Britain deciding to fight (due to secret agreements with France partly), Germany did its level best to stop the development — but blaming Russia for not being intimidated and Britian for not ignoring continental political developments doesn't mean that Germany comes off blameless either.

Actually part of the reason things went to war in 1914 was due to the fact that quite often national policy and agreements between nations were more or less secret — everybody was guessing what the others would do and got it wrong because of a lack of real knowledge and wishful thinking.

 

[Adler17]

Verbose, I did not set Taliban and Black Hand equal. However the Serbian Black Hand was a terroristical group to go for nationalistic aims. They did indeed had much influence on the Serbian government.
However as I said, Germany was slipping into the war like any other country and together with Britain it had the most less "guilt" on the war. Nevertheless Russia and France are to blame indeed as I pointed out. Russia was in a heavy crise because the Czar did not want to make more reforms. So he tried to avoid another drop in the already full tank. But he was wrong. All ways were closed except the way he wanted to go: reforms. To avoid this he played the nationalistic card. He lost, since he didn´t know the (in)capabilities of the Russian army and the other causes of the affaire.
France was eager to make revenge. The Russian foreign minister gave the French ambassador a sack of Alsacian Earth as deposit. The British tried to calm down both but it was invain. The situation was so hot that the socialist Jean Jaurès, who openly wanted to calm down the situation, was murdered unpunished by the courts (the assassin was found innocent in 1919...)
All powers slipped into the war like Bismarck predicted. It is argueable whom to give the most guilt after the Black Hand and Serbia perhaps, but the less guilt have Germany and Britain.

Adler

 

[Companiero]

How can someone be so naive as to believe that the reason the war started was the "terrorists" (nationalists) who assasinated Ferdinand? Germany, Austria, Russia all had imperialistic interests which crushed on the Balkans. Balkan nations were cought in the web of their intrigues and scavaged everything they could take their hands on indirectly in the name of their big buddy nations. Its true that the Karagorgevic dynasty was extremely nationalistic, but so were all the nations at the time. If you honestly believe that Germany entered the war in oder to punish the murderers of Archduke Ferdinand, that i'm sorry to say - your understanding of history pales by far in comparisson to your knowledge of it.

 

[Adler17]

The Black Hand was an organization to achieve their (nationalistic) aims with brute force and murder. I don´t think that this organization can´t be classified anything else than terroristical.

Adler

 

[Panzerking]

How can someone be so naive as to believe that the reason the war started was the "terrorists" (nationalists) who assasinated Ferdinand? Germany, Austria, Russia all had imperialistic interests which crushed on the Balkans. Balkan nations were cought in the web of their intrigues and scavaged everything they could take their hands on indirectly in the name of their big buddy nations. Its true that the Karagorgevic dynasty was extremely nationalistic, but so were all the nations at the time. If you honestly believe that Germany entered the war in oder to punish the murderers of Archduke Ferdinand, that i'm sorry to say - your understanding of history pales by far in comparisson to your knowledge of it.

Agreed.

Adler, as in the "Allied War-Crime" thread you seem to be wanting to divert any blame away from Germany and colour your nation as innocent for these actions. I would agree that Germany was not totally at fault for WWI and the Treaty of Versailles was unjustly harsh but it was the imperialistic ambitions of European nations which was in my opinion one of the root causes and Germany in 1914 was such a nation.

 

[Dreadnought]

Agreed.

Adler, as in the "Allied War-Crime" thread you seem to be wanting to divert any blame away from Germany and colour your nation as innocent for these actions. I would agree that Germany was not totally at fault for WWI and the Treaty of Versailles was unjustly harsh but it was the imperialistic ambitions of European nations which was in my opinion one of the root causes and Germany in 1914 was such a nation.

Then why is Germany only blamed?

 

[YNCS]

The infamous Article 231 of the Treaty of Versailles reads:

The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Germany accepts the responsibility of Germany and her allies for causing all the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Germany and her allies.​

As Vrylakas explains:

In other words, the Allies of 1919 were saying "The whole thing was exclusively Germany's fault." Such was the level of rejection of this article in Germany that even several decades later in 1961 West Germany, when historian Fritz Fischer published his work Germany's Aims in the First World War which said more or less "While there is much blame to go around the reality is we (Germany) really do deserve the largest share of it for starting the First World War," he was hounded out of German academia and received death threats. Still today in the West there are some who react to any hint of blaming 1914 Germany at least partially for the war with cries of "Victor's justice!"​

 

[amadeus]

I've never heard anyone say that WWI was started by the Germans, I always thought it was Austria's invading of Serbia after the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand.

 

[YNCS]

It's a little more complicated than that.

 

[Mallady]

If interested, I'd highly recommend Barbara W. Tuchman's "The Guns of August." Describes the run up to (and beginning of) the war. Anybody else read it?

 

[Adler17]

I never said the Balcan was in good constitution under the Austrians. Even today it is a huge problem. However I have to say following things: At first the Black Hand murdered and threatened people to get their nationalistic aims. I can´t see why they should be anything else than a terror gang.
Secondly I never said that Germany is totally innocent. It wasn´t. I already said the errors Germany in the July crise, as they gave the card blanche to the Austrians and they declared war on France. However Germany was together with Britiain the only power which tried to avoid ww1. Like all other powers Germany slipped into the war. Yes, I know about Fischer and his theories, which are now mostly proven as wrong. So Fischer´s theories have to be seen carefully. The other causes for the war, excluding the assassination, imperialism to make a long story short but a bit vague, Germany was as responsible as any other nation. So I only commented the actions from the assassination until the war began. And here Germany had, again said, together with Britain the less guilt of any other involved nations. This is not diverting back the blame but my personal opinion based on facts, as every historical article is based on such.
But at last we should see the facts:
1. Serbian terrorists killed the Austrian Archduke. Serbia was knowing the plans but was unwilling resp. unable to act because of the influence of the Black Hand.
2. Austria, backed up by Germany, went too early to war, the Germans were caught in the alliance.
3. Russia backed up Serbia because of interior problems (revolutions) and the unwwillingness to make reforms.
4. France was eager to take revenge for 1871 and was so hot that critics on this course were in life danger.
5. Germany and Britain tried to save peace but were caught in alliances and so had to go for war, although both were near to an understanding.
All in all these nations can´t be blamed. They made errors indeed but they were the only who tried to prevent a war.

Adler

 

[Companiero]

The other causes for the war, excluding the assassination, imperialism to make a long story short but a bit vague, Germany was as responsible as any other nation. So I only commented the actions from the assassination until the war began.

lol. So, what happened before the assasination, you dont consider to be relevant?
Live in reality German boy. Germany wanted the war, they wanted Austria to conquer Serbia, they wanted to expand east. If they didnt, they wouldnt have urged Austria to give the ultimatum. Its common understanding that international law is of no relevance and countries are bound by treaties as long as they are bound by interests.

 

[YNCS]

If interested, I'd highly recommend Barbara W. Tuchman's "The Guns of August." Describes the run up to (and beginning of) the war. Anybody else read it?

Robert K. Massie's Dreadnought is also good.

Tuchman's book starts in June 1914 and ends on August 30. Massie starts with the rise of Bismarck in 1858 and ends with Sir Edward Grey's famous "The lamps are going out all over Europe. We will not see them lit again in our lifetime."

 

[Gelion]

We talked about this Adler:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2053825&postcount=25

 

[Adler17]

And that was my reply:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2053960&postcount=26

However I want to reply to Companiero:
Germany didn´t want any war. However they gave the Austrians indeed a Card Blanche. This was misused as they only wanted to go in negotiations to back up the Austrian position. And why were there no diplomatic solution in the end? Serbia agreed to the ultimatum except for the most decisive and most relevant point: An international inquiry in Serbia with neutral policemen. That would in any other case a normal thing. But here the Serbian government could not have agreed to that because of their knowing (at least) of the assassination. Instead of agreeing and resigning they started a world war. Serbia would not have annexed by Austria but would have to stop dreaming of a Great Serbian empire on the Balcan. No, Germany didn´t want the war. Austria wanted the war after the ultimatum, but was also a victim. Serbia as someone who was responsible wanted to go for nationalistic dreams. France wanted revenge and Russia wanted to get rid of problems with revolutions. Germany and Britain were the only ones to loose for gaining nearly nothing. The risk was too great. So which nations are the least to be blamed?

Adler

 

[Zardnaar]

Plenty of blame to go around. Germany was slightly more at fault than the rest due to idiotic political brinkmanship.

 

[Colonel]

Actually to be fair Germany of all the countries was one of the least to blame. According to most modern history book the spark that set of the war was a Serbian Nationialist group called the Black Hand, which was supported by the Serbian Government. In actuallity the real cause was the system of alliances which lead the entire contient into war.

Serbia was allied Russia, Russia was allied with France which got enemies on both sides, now England could have been kept out of the war for at least a little while if Germany had refrained from invadeing Beligum which was one of Englands tradeing partners.

To answer the orginal question of why Germany recieved most of the blame. It is because of Article 231 of the Treaty of Versailles which Germany was forced to sign, the Article states in no uncertian terms that all of the blame for the war was to rest with Germany.

 

[Japanrocks12]

Factor in the expansionist policy of Russia. It supported Balkan nationalism because it would certainly abate the difficulty of conquering the region eventually. It had tried to before but was stopped by France, Britain, the Kingdom of Sardinia, and the Ottoman Empire in the Crimean War.

Germany was to because of ongoing enmities with Britian and France, the two nations which controlled half of the following talks.

France wanted payback for its deaths, imperialism in Africa, and Alsace-Lorreine

Britain wanted payback for its death, the violation of Belgium, and imperialism in Africa.

 

[Commy]

At noon (Berlin time) on August 1st, the ultimatum to Russia expired without a Russian reply.

Its not true. Russian government replied Russia woldnt attack Austria or Germany.